Sony was right, 20GB is too small

[Hypx]

http://hardware.gamespot.com/Story-ST-15015-2091-4-4-x

In an interview with Impress PC Watch, Kutaragi disclosed that he plans to install the Linux operating system on the PS3's hard disc drive (HDD) so it will be recognized as a computer, rather than a mere console.

But while Linux would require a hard drive to run on, Kutaragi told Impress PC Watch, "We're not going to equip [the PS3 with] a HDD by default, because no matter how much [capacity] we put in it, it won't be enough." It was unclear whether he was referring to the previously known fact that the PS3 would not have an internal hard drive or whether he was indicating that the device would not come with the external 2.5-inch detachable HDD outlined in the specs revealed at E3.

If the latter is the case, then hard drives will be optional--and will cost extra. Kutaragi seemed to confirm this when he said, "There are still some issues if the machine doesn't come with an HDD." Further comments seemed to indicate that there will be more than one model of optional add-on PS3 HDDs available at launch. "We've added a 2.5-inch HDD bay so that users can equip HDDs, such as 80GB and 120GB, even though that's still not enough [capacity]." By contrast, the Xbox 360 will ship with a 20GB hard drive, standard. No other 360 HDD models have been announced, although Microsoft officials have indicated larger-capacity models could be produced if needed.

This was 6 months ago. Yesterday, this was reported:

http://firingsquad.com/games/xbox_360_gaming/page3.asp
Despite only owning the Xbox360 for a few hours, I just discovered that I only have 12GB free. It turns out that Microsoft ships the Xbox 360 with some music and some high-def video clips. I don’t actually see any way to defrag the hard drive. This could be a problem because you can easily download 500MB game demo off the net and between ripping music files, and downloading large game demos, I can see fragmentation being a big problem. The original Xbox didn’t have this problem because the HDD was just used as a cache and for saved games.

Fragmentation is another word for running out of space because you'll usually only get fragmentation if your HDD is near capacity.

http://firingsquad.com/games/xbox_360_gaming/page5.asp
I’ve had my Xbox 360 for just one day and I only have 9GB free on the HDD. I haven’t even ripped any music to the Xbox’s HDD either! It’s becoming increasingly clear that 20GB is nowhere near enough HDD space for this system and that the Core package system cannot be recommended to any serious gamer. So where is all my space going?

And he get's a good start burning up HDD space. 3 GB in one day. 20GB is downright cramped at this rate.

So it turns out that Sony was right, including a preinstalled HDD that's only 20GB is useless, it'll run out very quickly. Allowing you to get an 80-120GB HDD separately is the only way to go, and you would still want more than that.

[Lefein]

LOL! You can't defragment the $100 HDD on a 360?!!
:lol: omg that's hilarious!

I plan on buying the cheapest available hard drive for the PS3 just for whatever mounting bracket they are using. Then I could get a monster hard drive for a lot less (I'm assuming)

[Shrinnan]

The reason you can't defrag it is because that space is used for backwards compatibility updates and live updates.

[Steroyd]

this has got to be some funny sh...stuff :lol:

i thought 20Gb was small but only 12Gb is what the user gets. :D
hang on i already knew that...

You can't defrag it, and with demos being 500Mb... awe dang that's got to be one for the books.

MS only did this so people would go out and get a Media Centre for extra space, typical. :roll:

And with $100 for 20Gig...sorry 12Gb awe hook line and sinker.
Only problem with Sony's HDD is if it will have any affect on games or just something to transfer the save files you don't use anymore.

People call him crazy but Ken knows what he's talking about.
He seriously must have a crystal ball in his office somewhere, i want a look.

[left_senseless]

i would still like the PS3 to come with a standard hdd. that just concretes another tool for the developers to use when designing their games.

[A1rF0rce01]

wow this seems awesome. I wonder if you will be able to use any hdd or just ones from sony. I hope they will let you use any usb hdd. :?:

Anyone know if this is true?

[tarquel]

USB HDD as a media storage device would be one of the best ideas [on top of the internal/removable main HDD of course].

I'd imagine that feature would be part of the OS for sure.

Cheers
N.

[Shrinnan]

The only thing I don't like about the Sony HDD is that it might not be able to save games, the main reason I use a HDD for my consoles. I don't care what Sony says, I'm mainly using the PS3 as a console, not a computer!

[A1rF0rce01]

USB HDD as a media storage device would be one of the best ideas [on top of the internal/removable main HDD of course].

I'd imagine that feature would be part of the OS for sure.

Cheers
N.yeah i would buy an usb hdd over the sony hdd just for the extra space and also you can use it for your computer. I really hope sony will support this. Maybe then MS will also follow sony lead.

[DDT]

It would problaly be easy to implement some defrag software via live, but i must admit the hdd should be bigger and the current price is stupid.

[Lefein]

The only thing I don't like about the Sony HDD is that it might not be able to save games, the main reason I use a HDD for my consoles. I don't care what Sony says, I'm mainly using the PS3 as a console, not a computer!

Think about what you just said... If you have a Memory Stick with your game save files on it, whats to stop you from copying it onto the "computer" or vice versa? If you can hop into the OS while pausing the game then it won't even matter. Let's just hope this feature is added.

[Shrinnan]

The only thing I don't like about the Sony HDD is that it might not be able to save games, the main reason I use a HDD for my consoles. I don't care what Sony says, I'm mainly using the PS3 as a console, not a computer!

Think about what you just said... If you have a Memory Stick with your game save files on it, whats to stop you from copying it onto the "computer" or vice versa? If you can hop into the OS while pausing the game then it won't even matter. Let's just hope this feature is added.

Do you mean, use my computer as a HDD? I don't really like doing that for one reason, I've had bad experiences with computers and when my computer is finally fast I'm keeping it at a certain amount of games so I just like my console to have a HDD for it's own games.

[dbakerstl]

AND FYI to all -- your drive doesnt get fragmented just when you start to run out of space, but when every you are dealing with lots of small (cache files) mixed in with large files (movies, game demos, etc..) because the drive will end up - Fragmenting the large files all over the drive... So fragmentation is going to be an issue even if you dont run out of space, but use the HD for large files... Now on the other hand the filesystem also has alot to do with fragmentation, for instance using the RISER FS on linux file server hosing tons of large / small files even when the drive gets near cappacity fragmentation just isnt a problem... SO lets hope that since PS3 is thinking about using linux, that the harddrive will be in a good FS (like RISER) or a good journaled FS...

[DDT]

A bit offtopic maybe but are the file system on xbox360 ntfs since it uses a version of windows 2000.

[tarquel]

Oooops I forgot to add this:

Fragmentation is another word for running out of space because you'll usually only get fragmentation if your HDD is near capacity.

Not entirely true... I'll leave it to the following links to explain it but basically its a performance issue, not "primarily" a free space issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragmentation#In_Computer_Storage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defragmentation

Just run Defrag on your pc and you'll see what i mean lol It reorganises the data on the hd so it can be accessed faster and quicker. I'm not going into a debate on it if anyone starts hehe ;)

EDIT: danursuline - u beat me to it lol [i'm just too slow at typing lol someone always beats me to it]

Regards.
N.

[PsychoMantis]

Please don't break the minimum 5 word post limit. Further such action will result in points deduction. Thank you. ~ Damnit

[WhatRuOn]

Defrag has nothing to do with the amount of free-space. But thats not saying that be unable to defrag the hard-drive wouln't create some performance issues down the road. If you are adding new content and deleting old content, there is no doubt that it will be scattered and will need a defrag.

[findaway]

I think many of us were not expecting a preinstalled HDD on the ps3 at launch, 20Gb isn't much especially if part of this storage is gonna have anything to do with games (which i hope not), besides including one in the package would boost the price up a bit, selling a much bigger one separately is the way to go..

[Hezz]

MS is really showing it's true colors here. Where they never really had the gamers and users in mind.

It really does make more sense to let the user buy a HDD based on thier needs.

It could well turn out that the worst thing about the X360 is not the hardware but the OS and the company behind it.

[Stoffinator]

Defrag has nothing to do with the amount of free-space.

Actualy it does. If you HD if full, you can't degrag. It takes a good number of MB for degrag to work.

[Mael Duin]

Sooo...What thinks you can download to PS3 HDD?

[dbakerstl]

Fragmentation also has alot to do with how the format of the drive is setup - Block Size is very important - smaller block is great if you have alot of small files because then you access times will be lower and will fragment less and use up less space for each small file, but using the smallest block size is a nightmare if you are using the drive for large files, MOVIES / games etc...

[JordanL]

Fragmentation is another word for running out of space because you'll usually only get fragmentation if your HDD is near capacity.

I thought I would clear this up. Fragmentation is exactly what it sounds like: when a file become fragmented into non linear pieces. Basically, on a hard drive, you have a sector, which is the smallest writeable space on the drive. The size of the sector gets larger on larger capacity drives... I've seen sectors as high as 512K. Only one file, or one part of a file, can occupy a single sector. So if you have lots of small 2K test files on your system, each one is actually taking up half a meg of HD space, (this is the difference of 'filled space' and 'space on disk').

Fragmentation happens when the sectors to store a file aren't linear on the disk. Think of it like a CD track. A linear sector arrangement is just like the CDs you buy from the store. Track 1 is first, and the data spirals out. Then Track 2 and Track 3. Fragmentation is like having pieces of Track 2 inbetween Track 1, and having Track 1's data being stored in a random order. This increases wear on the disc and DRAMATICALLY reduces the speed of the drive, as it has to find all the sectors in order. (As a side note, Intel has been working on technology that allows a HD to read non-linear segments of a file, circumventing fragmentation).

This usually happens with files which get appended whenever they are viewed... such as any file which gets a new timestamp, or a file which contains a change log.

On a gaming rig, that would be Live data first, but game data would do that as well if you saved often enough.

The reason you can't defrag it is because that space is used for backwards compatibility updates and live updates.

That's entirely not true. Core system files on an OS might need a reserved block on the HD, but those files are never altered, (or shouldn't be anyways), and so have no reason to be defragmented. Programs, such as a BC emulator, will fragment A LOT, and should certainly be defragmented.


NOTE: And to all the people who claimed that fragmentation doesn't happen because a HD fills up -- that's very false. Fragmentation gets dramatically worse when a drive fills up because the drive starts using all the random empty sectors which have been deleted non-linearly since that section of the HD was last used.

[Bhav]

personally i don't want to get the hard drive for the ps3 straight away because i dont think i'll want all the extras.

plus, i doubt the launch games will even utilise the hard drive straight away.

and another thing: i probably wont be able to afford it lol.

[dbakerstl]

[quote]
NOTE: And to all the people who claimed that fragmentation doesn't happen because a HD fills up -- that's very false. Fragmentation gets dramatically worse when a drive fills up because the drive starts using all the random empty sectors which have been deleted non-linearly since that section of the HD was last used.

Once agian not exactly true, YES fragmentation will happen more when drive gets closer to cappacity, but some FILESYSTEMS handle fragmentatio very well...

For example XFS -

High Performance through Efficient Management of Disk Space

Free space and inodes are handled by B+-trees inside the allocation groups. The use of B+-trees greatly contributes to XFS's performance and scalability. A feature truly unique to XFS is delayed allocation. XFS handles allocation by breaking the process into two pieces. A pending transaction is stored in RAM and the appropriate amount of space is reserved. XFS still does not decide where exactly (speaking of file system blocks) the data should be stored. This decision is delayed until the last possible moment. Some short-lived temporary data may never make its way to disk, because it may be obsolete at the time XFS decides where actually to save it. Thus XFS increases write performance and reduces file system fragmentation. Because delayed allocation results in less frequent write events than in other file systems, it is likely that data loss after a crash during a write is more severe.

EDIT: Forgot to paste :)
Preallocation to Avoid File System Fragmentation

Before writing the data to the file system, XFS reserves (preallocates) the free space needed for a file. Thus, file system fragmentation is greatly reduced. Performance is increased as the contents of a file are not distributed all over the file system.


http://www.novell.com/documentation/suse91/suselinux-adminguide/html/apas02.html

This means that many of your temp files will say in memory not taking up HD space, and same follows suite when drive gets more full , YES fragmentation will get higher as drive becomes full, but to what extent is very reliant uppon the filesystem that is in use.

[JordanL]

Once agian not exactly true, YES fragmentation will happen more when drive gets closer to cappacity, but some FILESYSTEMS handle fragmentatio very well...

For example XFS -

I knew that, I was talking about Windows file systems, as I thought we were talking about the X360 HD. But yes, Linux and Mac OS have a lot less problems with fragmentation, becuase hte filesytem isn't as prone to fragmentation problems.

[Damnit]

The Xbox360 GUI interface is upgradable. Much like how PSP's firmware works. I'm sure that i heard it from an Xbox executive in the G4 Countdown to Xbox360 special(video can be easily found on the internet, google's your friend). So defragmentation isn't a very big issue as it's bloated to be.

The real issue is the puny 20GB harddrive. Although my personal issue is what the heck are they going to charge for a 120GB HDD if a mere 20GB costs $100??!! 20GBx6 = 120GB, so should I add 100x6 for :shock: ? Ofcourse it won't be that high a price but seeing how the 20GB was priced so stupidly when bought alone, it does raise the question how ridiculously the 120GB(if it ever comes out) would be priced?

[JordanL]

The Xbox360 GUI interface is upgradable. Much like how PSP's firmware works. I'm sure that i heard it from an Xbox executive in the G4 Countdown to Xbox360 special(video can be easily found on the internet, google's your friend). So defragmentation isn't a very big issue as it's bloated to be. The real issue is the puny 20GB harddrive. Although my issue is what the heck are they going to charge for a 120GB HDD if a mere 20GB costs $100? 20GBx6 = 120GB, so should I add 100x6 for $600? Ofcourse it won't be $600 but seeing how the 20GB was priced seperately, it does raise the question how ridiculously the 120GB(if it ever comes out) would be priced.

Or I could always get a 250G myself for $70 and solder it into the rig the 20 comes in ;)

[dbakerstl]

Does anyone know what FS the Xbox360 is using?? Is it NTFS, or FAT, or WinFS? does anyone know, has anyone plugged their Xbox360 HD into their computer yet?

[JordanL]

Does anyone know what FS the Xbox360 is using?? Is it NTFS, or FAT, or WinFS? does anyone know, has anyone plugged their Xbox360 HD into their computer yet?

It can't be WinFS... WinFS isn't finished. I can almost guarantee its NTFS, because the dash is a modified Win2k.

[dbakerstl]

I thought the dash was using MCE - not Win2K... ohh well... Now the kernal may be a modified W2K kernal, but I am almost positve the DASH is a modified WindowsMedia Center Application and that the entire dash is running in a MCE environment... but could be wrong...

[Angelcurio]

an offtopic question, is there a better way to defragment a HD in Win XP, than the default defragmenter that comes with the system tools of win xp?

[JordanL]

I thought the dash was using MCE - not Win2K... ohh well... Now the kernal may be a modified W2K kernal, but I am almost positve the DASH is a modified WindowsMedia Center Application and that the entire dash is running in a MCE environment... but could be wrong...

Hmmm... that may be actually. I'm almost positive that the kernal is Win2k, but the actual dash might be an MCE environment.

an offtopic question, is there a better way to defragment a HD in Win XP, than the default defragmenter that comes with the system tools of win xp?

There are nice defragmenters you can download or buy. Norton has one.

[RajaF]

No way are they using WinFS because it is not finished (it won't even make the Vista launch which is pathetic). FAT would be out of the question because it is very old and oh so troublesome.

[Bhav]

Does anyone know what FS the Xbox360 is using?? Is it NTFS, or FAT, or WinFS? does anyone know, has anyone plugged their Xbox360 HD into their computer yet?

definitely not WinFS. i'll just leave it at that :p

[Organic_Shadow]

OSX isnt immune from fragmentation, it's just that it defragments as you open, close, and move files. That way the precious crapple computer is wasting all of it's CPU and hard drive speed constantly defragging instead of being fast and useful.

I LOOOVE waiting 2 minutes for it to open Photoshop CS2 on a G5....

Anywho....yes they are right. WinFS isnt done, and wont even be able to be used until late 2006 or early 2007 after Vista is already out. It's not even a file system though, its more like a virtual organization system that lays itself ON TOP of NTFS.

M$ needs badly to rid themselves of DOS and NTFS and come up with, or adopt, a new system altogether.

[:mn:]

OSX isnt immune from fragmentation, it's just that it defragments as you open, close, and move files. That way the precious crapple computer is wasting all of it's CPU and hard drive speed constantly defragging instead of being fast and useful.

I LOOOVE waiting 2 minutes for it to open Photoshop CS2 on a G5....

Anywho....yes they are right. WinFS isnt done, and wont even be able to be used until late 2006 or early 2007 after Vista is already out. It's not even a file system though, its more like a virtual organization system that lays itself ON TOP of NTFS.

M$ needs badly to rid themselves of DOS and NTFS and come up with, or adopt, a new system altogether.

That is absoulotlly true!

Funny Fact is that microsofts next OS after vista will be made from scratch with no codes that any other windows has used..no java no nothing just 1 code and ive forgotton what it is..

[Shalashaska]

Once again gentlemen...another reason to wait for the beloved PS3!

[:mn:]

Once again gentlemen...another reason to wait for the beloved PS3!
lol very true i guess microsoft really did rush on the x-box360!.

[JordanL]

OSX isnt immune from fragmentation, it's just that it defragments as you open, close, and move files. That way the precious crapple computer is wasting all of it's CPU and hard drive speed constantly defragging instead of being fast and useful.

I LOOOVE waiting 2 minutes for it to open Photoshop CS2 on a G5....

Anywho....yes they are right. WinFS isnt done, and wont even be able to be used until late 2006 or early 2007 after Vista is already out. It's not even a file system though, its more like a virtual organization system that lays itself ON TOP of NTFS.

M$ needs badly to rid themselves of DOS and NTFS and come up with, or adopt, a new system altogether.

I never claimed that. I said that other OSs can be less prone to problems with regaurd to fragmentation because of the way they handle their filesystem.

[The Chocobo Kid]

I still have my HDD for my ps2 that came with the FF11 game. so I'll used that.

[HiX]

Wouldn't it be great for PS3 to use iPod as an external HDD through USB?

It would be great for Sony if they supports those mini Laptop Hard Drives. Easy to find. If they were to sell their own line of 120GB HDD for PS3 inclusive of the Linux OS for only US$120-150, that's a reasonable price to begin with.

[Amadeus]

People that have a 360 erase all the pre-loaded movie content, and they get alot of space back. However, it is obvious that you'll be forced to purchase an overpriced bigger hard drive later.



This is why hardware crackers are working so hard to get an external USB drive to be able to save Live content on it, as well as read mp3s/movies.

[exodus7]

I hope Microsoft gives a free defragment tool over live, even so do you think that its possible to create a tool that will compress the data, sort of like winrar?

[surtur]

So what microsoft did was more smoke and mirrors then sony ever could do with there games but M$ did with there hardware devs are using dvd9 but only have 7GB or so at there disposal and the user buys a 100$ 20gb hd and has 12GB to use what in the F&**&^*&^ is this.... i am not buying a 360 even if they drop the price to 100$... screw em.. PS3 please dont let me down.. i kno wRev wont..
edit: so what else is M$ not letting us know the full truth about there system if there are already so many outed Half trueths revealed.

[JordanL]

So what microsoft did was more smoke and mirrors then sony ever could do with there games but M$ did with there hardware devs are using dvd9 but only have 7GB or so at there disposal and the user buys a 100$ 20gb hd and has 12GB to use what in the F&**&^*&^ is this.... i am not buying a 360 even if they drop the price to 100$... screw em.. PS3 please dont let me down.. i kno wRev wont..
edit: so what else is M$ not letting us know the full truth about there system if there are already so many outed Half trueths revealed.

$100 for 20GB is outrageous, but I dont think its quite as bad as you made it sound...

[markme2005]

ya'll fail to realize one thing. At least your getting a hard drive with the system. I would rather have one than not have one. Down the road there will be bigger hard drive capacities to buy. If space is an issue then delete the 3 month old game trailers you downloaded that don't matter anymore or maybe some of the game demos that you played before you bought the full product. Ya'll are just finding excuses to condemn the xbox 360. Have fun with your ps3 that doesn't even include a hard drive and will most likely cost more from the get go.

[surtur]

$100 for 20GB is outrageous, but I dont think its quite as bad as you made it sound...


I dont know exactly what you mean Jordan but what i am saying is that i couldnt buy a 360 unless it was alot cheaper without having the feeling i have been ripped off. esp here in canada were it costs like 800$ to buy the system with a couple games and an extra controler not to mention i dont play online nearly enough to warrant the gold Live membership and if all i am doing is storing songs and game updates on the HDD then i will be out of room in no time i have over 10GB worth of music on my computer most of them are from my CD's and i just dont think 2GB left on the HDD would be able to do much... (you might say why put all your song on it then only put some on) why not i have them and my system would be hooked up to my surround sound and it is a good stereo to listen to music so if i could have all my songs on there it would be nice.. but if i want some game updates im out of room.. 20GB was already not enough but now 12GB.. kmon how is it not as bad as i make it sound it is if i dont have the money to buy more then one HDD i would rather buy a new computer for 1000$ then have a 360 with two HDD at 40GB....

[Perfect Sin]

What if the PS3 could have 2 HDDs. I mean one HDD would be default (only open to devs) and only like 5-10 gbs or so, that way devs could develope games knowing there's some trace of a HDD to help out games (though they don't use it much). The other HDD would be consumer purchased, these would be incredible space HDDs like 80-200 GB.

Get where I'm going with this?

[surtur]

I like that idea Perfect Sin i am sure they could fit a small 10gb HD without taking much room and have a larger slot for the 200GB (i would love to have a 200GB HDD but sold at normal prices like Computers HDD) I dont know how much Room the Devs would need but i think if they have a general idea from some Dev's on what they would like to work with that would be a good idea even if it was only 2-5GB if that was all they need then basically you get the fully functional PS3 for the cost of the system. i dont know what they have planned but i think this is actually something M$ should have used also

[Perfect Sin]

Devs prefer Memory over HDD any day of the week. At least that's what I heard once.

So i'm assuming what ever purpose the HDD is used for probably would not need more than 5 GBs of space.

[JordanL]

Down the road there will be bigger hard drive capacities to buy. If space is an issue then delete the 3 month old game trailers you downloaded that don't matter anymore or maybe some of the game demos that you played before you bought the full product.

Actually, for me the issue is that they are charging 10 times the market price for a HD. I get most of my HDs for at most $.50/GB, and I never buy at more than $.75/GB. The X360 HD is $5/GB.

[Sederior]

Knowing that Sony is trying to be the complete antithesis of Microsoft, they'll most likely use it for something else other than just playing demos and songs.

What I'm hoping that they do, is that you will be able to actually create your own customizable character models within games, and use them for all. From stuff like DDR to strategy shooters like Metal Gear Solid 4 through the same character. Puts new meaning into the term "skin"

[SpaceMonkeyDave]

[quote]
Further comments seemed to indicate that there will be more than one model of optional add-on PS3 HDDs available at launch. "We've added a 2.5-inch HDD bay so that users can equip HDDs, such as 80GB and 120GB, even though that's still not enough [capacity]

hdd's at launch for the ps3? excellent! now if developers put custom soundtracks in most of thier games (if not all) im definitly getting a hdd! (that was an ace feature on teh xbox)

another good thing about the hard drive, the cache could be used to increase loading times perhaps?


but one thing i do hope for (and yes i know it wont happen) but have pc hard drives able to slot into the ps3 and the ps3 be compatible with them, man i have loads of pc hdd's laying around!

however seeing that the ps3 has usb ports, how about a usb hard drive anyone? :lol:

if the ps3 does support usb hard drives i will be immensly pleased that will mean i will be able to use my archos gmini402 with it (20gb mp3 & avi player) because although it is an mp3 player, most mp3 players just work like a portable hdd with some firmware installed
http://www.portablegadgets.net/images/63.jpg
http://www.msimiami.com/images/images_products/Mega_Stick_256.jpg
the ability to download content from the ps3 network and ps3 games onto a device such as this would be great! also to quickly stream music from the hdd and have it playing while playing games or something, this could also apply if you took round a mates house too, just plug in the usb hdd and you can listen to your songs etc!

come to think of it, a usb hdd, is much more practical than a slot in hdd..

[HiX]

I have another great idea for Sony: Free Linux PS3 OS CD in every box. HDD? Go buy any standard 2.5'' laptop HDD that you prefer and install the OS. Voila~ You got yourself a working computer.. Or a supercomputer, perhaps.

Now that is a killer idea and surely will boost PS3's sale like mad.