Locked Thread

[Imgoingnuts]

Thread Locked.

Premise- Turning into flamebait.

[pendinginsanity]

hmmm, how is that any different than what we're being taught in schools? That muslims is the source of terrorism and so on, and they're all evil people?

The truth is that jews have not been very nice to muslims now have they?
I understand they're angry about the jews - I'd be pretty ****in pissd if someone stole my home too, and smashed my nabour countries to pieces, with their superior military hardware.

[Imgoingnuts]

hmmm, how is that any different than what we're being taught in schools? That muslims is the source of terrorism and so on, and they're all evil people?

The truth is that jews have not been very nice to muslims now have they?
I understand they're angry about the jews - I'd be pretty ****in pissd if someone stole my home too, and smashed my nabour countries to pieces, with their superior military hardware.

why am i not surprised by your anti-semitic comments...you were the one that disapproved of mix race relationships.

The fact of the matter is that the arabs target civilians and the IDF terrorist positions who have one agenda kill as many Jews as possible.

[pendinginsanity]

why am i not surprised by your anti-semitic comments...you were the one that disapproved of mix race relationships.

The fact of the matter is that the arabs target civilians and the IDF terrorist positions who have one agenda kill as many Jews as possible.
But if I disprove mixed breeding, then muslims and jews would be in the same boat? Correct?

No this is not about racism, this is about what the individual people is doing against others, and jews are not being too nice towards the muslims in the middle-east and that's the whole point I'm trying to get across.

[Lefein]

Didn't God tell George Bush to invade Iraq?

[pendinginsanity]

Didn't God tell George Bush to invade Iraq?
:lol:
Nah more like the people having stock in the oil companies :???:

[Imgoingnuts]

The Jews are just protecting themselves from the arab terrorists. and Jews have lived in that area for ever it wasnt arab land. The arabs wont settle down until all jews are either dead or have moved from their homes. Most Palestianians want peace with Israel but they arent allowed by Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Kuwait, Bahrain these arab states which fund the terrorists to kill Jews.

Pendinginsanity you are a racist and a nazi anti-semite you will get whats comming to you.

[Lefein]

I think they are all pigs. Jews believe that they are chosen by God and thus find justification for their extremism whereas hardcore Islamic militants believe that religion can be spread at the tip of a sword.

Extremism is the disease, not a people. Until strip joints open up in Basrah there will be no peace. As long as Israel stretches its boundaries beyond the original UN Oslo Accords, there will be no peace. Frankly, I can't decide what is worse.. Being in a stupid war that has lasted endless generations for no reason or actually rooting for a side.

[pendinginsanity]

The Jews are just protecting themselves from the arab terrorists. and Jews have lived in that area for ever it wasnt arab land. The arabs wont settle down until all jews are either dead or have moved from their homes. Most Palestianians want peace with Israel but they arent allowed by Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Kuwait, Bahrain these arab states which fund the terrorists to kill Jews.

Pendinginsanity you are a racist and a nazi anti-semite you will get whats comming to you.
Uhhh what's going to happend? Will <insert fantasy person> smite me from being an heretic?
I think they are all pigs. Jews believe that they are chosen by God and thus find justification for their extremism whereas hardcore Islamic militants believe that religion can be spread at the tip of a sword.

Extremism is the disease, not a people. Until strip joints open up in Basrah there will be no peace. As long as Israel stretches its boundaries beyond the original UN Oslo Accords, there will be no peace. Frankly, I can't decide what is worse.. Being in a stupid war that has lasted endless generations for no reason or actually rooting for a side.
So so true, I don't support any sides, all I'm saying is that it's a bit double-moral saying that this video is utterly disturbing.
It's more or less the same for Jews, Christians or any kind of racial group.

[Imgoingnuts]

let me introduce you people to Pallywood:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys

[Denier-of-Soup]

why am i not surprised by your anti-semitic comments...

And why am I not surprised at your attempts to defame the Arabs?

[Lefein]

I just laugh at the whole thing. For all my countries faults, at least we put man up in space. These people are living in the stone age fighting over their god. Of course, we get dragged into it, but I choose not to care too much at a personal level.

If I had to root for anything, it's that they both hit each other with nukes at the same time and see their atrocity against each other for what it is. Until that time, they really haven't got it out. The Civil War in the US was as bloody as it gets, but it became a conflict put behind us. Closure won't come any other way. They need to stare oblivion in the face before they see higher ideals.

[pendinginsanity]

I just laugh at the whole thing. For all my countries faults, at least we put man up in space. These people are living in the stone age fighting over their god. Of course, we get dragged into it, but I choose not to care too much at a personal level.

If I had to root for anything, it's that they both hit each other with nukes at the same time and see their atrocity against each other for what it is. Until that time, they really haven't got it out. The Civil War in the US was as bloody as it gets, but it became a conflict put behind us. Closure won't come any other way. They need to stare oblivion in the face before they see higher ideals.
I'm not so sure about that, both Muslims and Jews have gone bonkers over the years, they're not going to lay down their weapons untill they're dead - all of them, ignorant fanatics.

[pendinginsanity]

arabs defame themselves with their backward way of life. they have had many oppertunities to make peace with Israel but choose to wage war and destruction instead and right now they are even fighting with themselves in Israel, Iraq, Lebanon...arabs are incapable of peace and reason.
Haha and Jews are not? Suddenly you forget what the Jews did Egypt, or Lebanon several times :lol:

You got it all wrong, it's not muslims or jews that are incapable of having peace - it's religious people alltogether.

[Imgoingnuts]

Haha and Jews are not? Suddenly you forget what the Jews did Egypt, or Lebanon several times :lol:

You got it all wrong, it's not muslims or jews that are incapable of having peace - it's religious people alltogether.

Egypt?! it really shows how ignorant little kid you are. and Lebanon brought it upon themselves they started attacking Israel and Jews have the right to protect themselves.

[pendinginsanity]

Egypt?! it really shows how ignorant little kid you are. and Lebanon brought it upon themselves they started attacking Israel and Jews have the right to protect themselves.
Omg :lol:
You wouldn't by any chance happend to be a Jew yourself would you :D

[Denier-of-Soup]

arabs defame themselves with their backward way of life. they have had many oppertunities to make peace with Israel but choose to wage war and destruction instead and right now they are even fighting with themselves in Israel, Iraq, Lebanon...arabs are incapable of peace and reason.

Maybe you should get off your fat *** and head over to the Middle East instead of spending all your time searching for Arab videos on Youtube.

[Hexadecimal]

As if Jewish children aren't brainwashed to dislike arabs and love America?

[pendinginsanity]

As if Jewish children aren't brainwashed to dislike arabs and love America?
Exactly, the OP is obviously a hypocrite along with all other religious people!

[shcndw]

My parents have brainwashed me to eat healthy food...

[DayWalker]

:lol:

reminds me of that Jesus Camp movie...

Religion and man... :roll:

[Kougaiji]

arabs defame themselves with their backward way of life. they have had many oppertunities to make peace with Israel but choose to wage war and destruction instead and right now they are even fighting with themselves in Israel, Iraq, Lebanon...arabs are incapable of peace and reason.

I was wondering what the whole point of this thread being here was. After this post I realized it.

If you're going to make one-sided idiotic comments that expose what kind of pig you are, please put them in the Politics section. There is no point to this thread aside to draw hatred toward others.

[klonere]

Wow, this thread reminds me of somewhere......where could that be....oh yeah

NORTHERN IRELAND

Please, the one-sided comments in this thread are so, well, typical of the ME situation. This racism is what gave the excuse to extremists on both sides to attack each other.....

[Firefox]

The Quran:

“O People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Let us come to a mutual agreement, that we shall serve none but God. That neither shall we ascribe divinity to anyone beside Him, nor shall we take others for our lords beside God.” And if they turn away, then say, “Bear witness that it is we who have surrendered ourselves unto Him.” (quran 3:64)

You can see what Quran preaches and the "Pure" teachings of Islam are
totally different than what this thread says.

[macel82]

I can't believe how people defend intolerant pigs like the Palestinians.

[qasim]

and zionazis r taught to hate muslims so stfu orig poster they hate christians 2 but they cover it well just look at state of usa usa immigration asked me how we know u wont stay in states i said u seen jerry springer n they let me in also jewtube removed vid of palestinian walkin dwn street n being shot in back by idf from 2 feet

[pendinginsanity]

I can't believe how people defend intolerant pigs like the Palestinians.
Intolerant? Howd you feel about getting your *** kicked out of your home? You'd whine like the coward you are.

[qasim]

The Jews are just protecting themselves from the arab terrorists. and Jews have lived in that area for ever it wasnt arab land. The arabs wont settle down until all jews are either dead or have moved from their homes. Most Palestianians want peace with Israel but they arent allowed by Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Kuwait, Bahrain these arab states which fund the terrorists to kill Jews.

Pendinginsanity you are a racist and a nazi anti-semite you will get whats comming to you.

r u ******ed the countries u mentioned r owened by usa why u think alqadea started to get these puppet arab leaders out of power muslims dnt own their countries usa does history lesson red neck ww2 starts arabs told freedom from turks if they help allies they help n usa uk n france carve up m.e uk usa tell jew financers pay us we give u palestine arabs betrayed dictators put in power over m.e n its oil no oil in israel funny that also genocide in libya by italy 10 mil killed concentration camp

[Firefox]

Intolerant? Howd you feel about getting your *** kicked out of your home? You'd whine like the coward you are.

Hold on, pendinginsanity I thought you were Jewish? :confused:

[Denier-of-Soup]

Believe it or not, all Jews don't hate Palestinians. =P

[DayWalker]

^^^ likewise all Palestinians don't hate all Jews ;)

IMO- stupid of us to create the nation anyways... :roll:

[pendinginsanity]

Hold on, pendinginsanity I thought you were Jewish? :confused:
Are you for real? I'm a bloody nordic heretic that's what I am!

[qasim]

real semetic jews do not support israel zionism was created by fake jews of europe who converted to “being jew” so muslims nor christians would engulf the empire hundreds of years ago, the head of the snake in the bible are these fake jews the forign body that is mentioned are these jews israel is a sin pit thanks to them live gay sex shows when muslims take it back with help of ISA r.a Jesus to u they will be wiped out muslims hate jews but they are more likely to go hevean then christians as jews are a monothists u say G-D had a son just like zesus this will never be forgiven the dajjal (anti-christ) is coming dnt become a muslim monothism and belief in day of judgement may save u

[sonyfan6]

You people have no idea what you're talking about. Do a bit of research before you start talking about the Middle East. There's enough misconceptions out there as it is.

[Soviet635]

You people have no idea what you're talking about. Do a bit of research before you start talking about the Middle East. There's enough misconceptions out there as it is.

Apposed to you, who knows everything about the Middle East?

Don't tell people to do research when you yourself show no indication of knowing any better than they.

I can't believe how people defend intolerant pigs like the Palestinians.

I can't believe people defend the Zionist Jews in Israel...I don't understand how the United States can support a nation that should not exist in the first place...

[Cody]

Egypt attacked Isreal first. They attacked in order to try and regain the Gaza strip. Isreal was a country created because the jews had no homes and were attacked and suffered horribly during WW2.
it's land, if anyone should have a right to it it is the people who lost a quarter of there population. Ever since Isreal was created they have been attacked by palestinian countries. Isreal has beent he country attacked, just because there the stronger country they are the eil ones? I do admit jews have commited some crimes but next to palestine who uses civilian shields they are clean. Hell in Lebanon Isreal was dropping warnings before bombs taking away the chance of surprise.

[Kougaiji]

What does this have to do with saudi arabia?

[pendinginsanity]

While I appreciate your point that we should mourn other genocides as well as the holocaust, it doesn't mean you vent on Jews and call them attention *****s ~ Nikhil

[samven582]

Link (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)


What's interesting about this is the fact that he is quoting Jewish scripture to defend hisd evil comments, and the fact that this man is the former Chief Rabbi in Israel, which means what he is advocating represents the views of a significant population of Israeli Jews. Notice also in the 5th paragraph he explains how the life of a non-Jew is not equal to that of a Jew. This is an opinion found in the Jewish Talmud as well.

Eliyahu advocates carpet bombing Gaza

All civilians living in Gaza are collectively guilty for Kassam attacks on Sderot, former Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has written in a letter to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

Eliyahu ruled that there was absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians during a potential massive military offensive on Gaza aimed at stopping the rocket launchings.

The letter, published in Olam Katan [Small World], a weekly pamphlet to be distributed in synagogues nationwide this Friday, cited the biblical story of the Shechem massacre (Genesis 34) and Maimonides' commentary (Laws of Kings 9, 14) on the story as proof texts for his legal decision.

According to Jewish war ethics, wrote Eliyahu, an entire city holds collective responsibility for the immoral behavior of individuals. In Gaza, the entire populace is responsible because they do nothing to stop the firing of Kassam rockets.

The former chief rabbi also said it was forbidden to risk the lives of Jews in Sderot or the lives of IDF soldiers for fear of injuring or killing Palestinian noncombatants living in Gaza.

Eliyahu could not be reached for an interview. However, Eliyahu's son, Shmuel Eliyahu, who is chief rabbi of Safed, said his father opposed a ground troop incursion into Gaza that would endanger IDF soldiers. Rather, he advocated carpet bombing the general area from which the Kassams were launched, regardless of the price in Palestinian life.

"If they don't stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand," said Shmuel Eliyahu. "And if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don't stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop."

In the letter, Eliyahu quoted from Psalms. "I will pursue my enemies and apprehend them and I will not desist until I have eradicated them."

Eliyahu wrote that "This is a message to all leaders of the Jewish people not to be compassionate with those who shoot [rockets] at civilians in their houses."

[sonyfan6]

What makes you think that Eliyahu speaks for large portion of Israeli Jews? That's like saying Pat Robertson speaks for a majority of American Christians. Chief Rabbi is not an elected political position that makes or enforces laws nor is it a religious leader, like the Pope, that is the head of a religion.

All the chief rabbis (there's more than one at a time) do in Israel is arbitrate who and how Jewish weddings/divorces/conversion/burials are performed, determine what foods are kosher and oversee religious sites. Most Israeli Jews are secular and don't give a rats *** about the chief rabbis other than to think that they are pompous jerks who should recognize non-orthodox forms of Judism.

re: pending insanity
I feel quite safe in calling you a bigot. Look up roadkill sometime. You and he should get along great. Here's a group you might want to join since you're spouting their messages anyway: http://www.nsm88.com/index2.html

re: cody
Israel was not created because WWII Jews needed somewhere to go. That's the message that has been created by the leader of Iran and people like him that want to misinform people. Jews lived in Israel long before WWII (and I'm not talking biblical times here, this is continuously). Following WWI the Ottoman Empire was split up. The Palestinian territory was split along the Jordan. East of the Jordan was for the Arabs (ruled by a Syrian noble whom the Brittish installed as the Jordanians new king) and the west was to be given to the local Jews. The British did not keep to this, and it would have been very unfair since the area west of the Jordan was not majority Jewish. So instead new plans (Peel Commission and later UN Partition Plan) where created to split the land West of the Jordan (22% of the total land) into two portions. One portion, Israel, would have a majority Jews and could be a Jewish democracy, not a theocracy. The other portion, Palestine, would have a majority Muslims and could be a Muslim democracy, not a theocracy. This was proven necessary by the Grand Mufti allying himself with Hitler and promoting a supremist version of Islam in the region attempting to wipe out non-Muslims, particularly Jews. The UN Partition Plan was the one that went forth although the Arab nations rejected it. When Israel declared its independence along the partition plan lines no land was stolen. Jews were a majority in the land within Israel's borders but Arabs were a large minority. They did not lose any land rights and were given full citizenship. The only transfer of land ownership that occured was that which was owned by the British government (and had previously been owned by the Ottoman Empire) which was transfered to the Israeli government. No one that owned land lost it when Israel was created. The Following War, initiated by the surrounding nations resulted in two major things: the proposed Palestinian state was conquered by the surrounding nations and its territory annexed into there's (Egypt got the Gaza Strip, Jordan the West Bank and Jerusalem, Israel got little pieces of territory giving it continuous borders). Also, many refugees were created in the fighting: both Jewish and Arab. Roughly 700,000 Arabs refugees and 850,000 Jewish refugees. The Jewish refugees settled in Israel and given citizenship. The Arab refugees were not allowed to settle or become citizens of any country in an effort to legitimize the continued fighting against Israel. To this day there are numerous Arab citizens of Israel (rought 1/5th the country's total population) and they are full citizens.

[DINAMO788]

holy crap our political discussions used to be good. they started off poor but we all laearned from eachother and grew. i have no clue where all you other people came from without any insight just kicking and screaming like a bunch of kids. this thread is so misinformed it needs a lock.

btw denier, just wonder....if i found an article or video i thought was interesting that protrayed some arabs in a negative light, am i allowed to post it without "trying to defame arabs"? imgoingnuts was clearly sparking aggression but every peice of media that protrays arabs in a negtive light(whther its accurate or not) you brush off and make an accusation of trying to defame all arabs.


ok pending i now thinky ou're a total dumbass and bigot(though im not calling you one so i dont get an infraction).
if you want some education look up the holocuast thread that sonyfan6 and roadkill had a while back. i'm sure you'll find pretty much everything you need there. i hope you're tolerante and open enough to see for yourself and have the ability to change your very misguided perception.
http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=71708

[pendinginsanity]

ok pending i now thinky ou're a total dumbass and bigot(though im not calling you one so i dont get an infraction).
if you want some education look up the holocuast thread that sonyfan6 and roadkill had a while back. i'm sure you'll find pretty much everything you need there. i hope you're tolerante and open enough to see for yourself and have the ability to change your very misguided perception.
http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=71708
I don't totally deny holocaust, I just disagree with how many jews was killed and how they were killed.
It's kinda obvious that they were persecuted by the Nazi regime, but it was the opportunity of the milinium for the jewish lie and they took it.

Again if you can honestly say (after watching www.onethirdoftheholocaust (http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust)) that 6 million jews died by the means of gassing then YOU are the one in denial.

Also I'm not a Nazi btw if you think it's because of that. I'm all up for democracy and peacefull means of comming to agreements, I believe everybody have a right to live and so on. I just have personal issues with the jewish people in particular because they're most the source of why Germany suffered for +60 years and why wars are raging in the middle-east.

[DINAMO788]

they weren't all gassed. many videos like those tell you want they want you to hear and spin the truth and exaggerate. if you want a good read, i suggest the thread.
and regardless most holocuast deniers dont deny the holocaust but like you said the numberkilled and the way in which it was done. but they and you are still holocuast deniers. you are trying to delegitmize the plight of the jewish people and that is why i still say holocaust deniers are anti-semits.

btw im glad you though that the chance to exterminate jews was the opportunity of the millenium

[pendinginsanity]

they weren't all gassed. many videos like those tell you want they want you to hear and spin the truth and exaggerate. if you want a good read, i suggest the thread.
and regardless most holocuast deniers dont deny the holocaust but like you said the numberkilled and the way in which it was done. but they and you are still holocuast deniers. you are trying to delegitmize the plight of the jewish people and that is why i still say holocaust deniers are anti-semits.

btw im glad you though that the chance to exterminate jews was the opportunity of the millenium

Sorry I didn't finish the sentence, I meant it was the opportunity of the milinium for the JEWS to spread this lie.
Also this video doesn't say that all 6 million was gassed, it adresses the official number of people gassed in each camp and then tear the lie apart so it becomes so obvious that only jews themself still believes it.

Seriously we have this barber that supposingly was shaving the victims before they died, he says that it only took 5 minutes to gas about a 120 people in the room he was in + carrying them out, all that was done in about 5 minutes, that's just physically impossible.
This denier also adresses the issue about the cremating, how 700,000 or so was cremated in Treblinka on an OPEN grill, it would have been impossible to do it, as human bodies don't burn themselfes and there was noway that the Nazis could provide all the fuel because they were lacking it all over the place due to the war.

Next thing is that the jews in Treblinka was supposingly gassed with a captured diesel soviet tank, yet that is one of the most inefficent and inlogical ways to do it, especially considering Germans was ontop of the ladder concerning technology back then.
Hell even I could create a carbon-monoxide generator that's more efficent than a diesel soviet tank.

Also how do you explain this

The 1919 Holocaust that Failed You heard about the Holocaust in which 6 million Jews were killed in Nazi Death Camps. Did you hear about the "threatened holocaust" of 6 million Jews about 20 years earlier?
Probably not, even though a former Governor of New York wrote about it in 1919, because that early holocaust never became a best-seller.
Published in
The American Hebrew
October 31, 1919
by Martin Glynn http://www.jewwatch.com/images/CrucifixionOfJewsMustStop_page1_tiny.JPG
Click here (http://www.iamthewitness.com/CrucifixionOfJewsMustStop_page1.PNG) for full image In Glynn's article, we find that World War I ended "for everybody, but the Jew."
Glynn encourages the League of Nations to bring peace to the world, and he wants to "give justice to the Jew and other oppressed peoples".
However, this threatened Holocaust of 6 million Jews never became popular with the American or European public. Perhaps this is why the Zionists staged a new and improved version of the 6 million Holocaust during World War II. In this revised Holocaust, they made sure that some of the 6 million Jews were killed. This turned out to be the key to making the Holocaust a phenomenal success.

[DINAMO788]

if you want to debate then lets do it in that thread i posted. but please read some of it so that we dont repeat covered arguments. i'll look at your video if you check out that thread.

and btw thanks for clairfying....now i think you're just that much more horrible for saying that.

[pendinginsanity]

if you want to debate then lets do it in that thread i posted. but please read some of it so that we dont repeat covered arguments. i'll look at your video if you check out that thread.

and btw thanks for clairfying....now i think you're just that much more horrible for saying that.
Sometimes I wonder, I just really do - you think it was more horrifying for me saying that it was a lie than when I said that I wanted it to happend?
Wouldn't it be like better if the Holocaust didn't happend the way we know it.

Man sometimes it's like you guys just want this to happend and you wouldn't even be happy if it came out that so many people didn't die :-?

And no I don't feel like taking it to the other topic, most of what I have to say is in the video, it'll never go mainstream, but I know with myself that I'll never believe in this when the 'evidence' is that questionable.

[sonyfan6]

As dinamo has said, check out how I debunked those and more that roadkill brought up. You are just repeating, exactly, nazi holocaust denial. It was the American nazi party that invented holocaust denial because they found that the holocaust made it impossible for them to recruit people to national socialism.

However, more to the point, all of the issues brought up in that video and all the ones you have mentioned are pure bs. As I said, check out the threat that roadkill started. Read it and you will see a very simple pattern: roadkill repeats nazi lie about holocaust, I track down source and show who created the lie and how and what's wrong with it.

The most fundamental one is that the holocaust deniers cannot argue against the enormous amount of evidence clearly showing that a) the Holocaust occurred and b) it occurred in the manner described by historians and c) to the number of people described by historians. Instead Holocaust deniers attempt to convince people by making 'scientific' claims that it was impossible. You will see roadkill include several such claims in his thread,. In every case the 'science' behind the claim is pure fabrication. The Nazis own documents prove otherwise. The very simple truth of the Holocaust is that 6 million (actually 5.7 million) Jews were exterminated by the Nazis in an attempt to wipe out the entire people. The most common method of extermination was gas chambers followed by incinerating the body. These took place in death camps using equipment created by Nazi Germany for one purpose: to eradicate all traces of a group of people.

You are a Holocaust denier. As dinamo said, I hope you are tolerant enough to see for yourself.

[pendinginsanity]

As dinamo has said, check out how I debunked those and more that roadkill brought up. You are just repeating, exactly, nazi holocaust denial. It was the American nazi party that invented holocaust denial because they found that the holocaust made it impossible for them to recruit people to national socialism.

However, more to the point, all of the issues brought up in that video and all the ones you have mentioned are pure bs. As I said, check out the threat that roadkill started. Read it and you will see a very simple pattern: roadkill repeats nazi lie about holocaust, I track down source and show who created the lie and how and what's wrong with it.

The most fundamental one is that the holocaust deniers cannot argue against the enormous amount of evidence clearly showing that a) the Holocaust occurred and b) it occurred in the manner described by historians and c) to the number of people described by historians. Instead Holocaust deniers attempt to convince people by making 'scientific' claims that it was impossible. You will see roadkill include several such claims in his thread,. In every case the 'science' behind the claim is pure fabrication. The Nazis own documents prove otherwise. The very simple truth of the Holocaust is that 6 million (actually 5.7 million) Jews were exterminated by the Nazis in an attempt to wipe out the entire people. The most common method of extermination was gas chambers followed by incinerating the body. These took place in death camps using equipment created by Nazi Germany for one purpose: to eradicate all traces of a group of people.

You are a Holocaust denier. As dinamo said, I hope you are tolerant enough to see for yourself.
Well again everytime I jump into a discussion about the topic I get the same responses like in the thread you're talking about.
It really doesn't add up, there's just things that doesn't make sense.

This video is different though, as it takes everything from books, interviews and the nuremberg trials and put it together, and it's so obvious that what's going on is not the truth.

And yeah I guess I'm partly a Holocaust denier in the sense that I don't think it happend the way the jews want it to be, although I can agree that the Nazis did terrible atrocities against them, no doubt and I feel sorry about it - but when they twist it and lie just to get influence and sympathy around the world the feeling of being sorry turns around to annoyance and ultimately hatred instead.

[DINAMO788]

then lets do this. take some time..maybe a day or more and check the thread. you'll see common aguments that roadkill has made and you'll see sonyfan6's denial of them. after you read it all and you still have doubts, then make another post in that thread and someone will address it, most likely finding the source of error in your speculation and providing the correct data

[pendinginsanity]

then lets do this. take some time..maybe a day or more and check the thread. you'll see common aguments that roadkill has made and you'll see sonyfan6's denial of them. after you read it all and you still have doubts, then make another post in that thread and someone will address it, most likely finding the source of error in your speculation and providing the correct data
But lets be honest here, even if God showed himself without pants telling that the Holocaust was a fraud the Jews would still believe it happend, there's just no way that'' change, because if it was a lie it would mean that the Jews are lowlife scumbags that lied to the world and exploited them so they could get Israel and financial backup correct? So even if the evidence was so overwhelming that it didn't happend they'd still say it did happend so there's really no point in doing so.

That also leads me to the next thing, I'm out of this thread.

[sonyfan6]

I'll agree with Dinamo here. Go ahead and read through that thread, or don't if you don't want to. But post specifically, what you think happened/didn't happen in the Holocaust and I will address it, just as I did roadkill.

EDIT: Just saw the last post:
Jews are lowlife scumbags

Thanks for summing up your beliefs so succintly.

[pendinginsanity]

I'll agree with Dinamo here. Go ahead and read through that thread, or don't if you don't want to. But post specifically, what you think happened/didn't happen in the Holocaust and I will address it, just as I did roadkill.

EDIT: Just saw the last post:


Thanks for summing up your beliefs so succintly.

Well you took it out of context didn't you?
I mean if the Holocaust in fact did happend the way the jews claim, then there's no worries, but if they did indeed lie I'd think you'd have the same opinion about them, of course not if you're a jew yourself but everybody else.

[DINAMO788]

ehhhh....must get kind of annoying putting in all that time and effort to prove something to a few peoople and then have someone randomly jump in and make the same denials and claims huh, sonyfan6..

[sonyfan6]

Well you took it out of context didn't you?
I mean if the Holocaust in fact did happend the way the jews claim, then there's no worries, but if they did indeed lie I'd think you'd have the same opinion about them, of course not if you're a jew yourself but everybody else.

A) I didn't take anything out of context. Your if/then modifier is meaningless as you've repeatedly made Holocaust denial claims.

B) That you aren't a nazi yourself, but are just willing to believe their lies (and make no mistake, Holocaust denial was invented by the American nazi party well after WWII) doesn't make you any better than a Nazi. It just makes you a pawn.

[pendinginsanity]

A) I didn't take anything out of context. Your if/then modifier is meaningless as you've repeatedly made Holocaust denial claims.

B) That you aren't a nazi yourself, but are just willing to believe their lies (and make no mistake, Holocaust denial was invented by the American nazi party well after WWII) doesn't make you any better than a Nazi. It just makes you a pawn.
How's that? Nazis wants to get rid of jews, and other 'undesired' people, I don't, I just want to know the truth, there's quite a big difference going on here.

[sonyfan6]

If you want the truth, head over to roadkill's thread and see for yourself. Roadkill went through a lot of holocaust denier ammunition before he gave up, however there was still a lot of ground left to cover. Any question you have about the holocaust I'll be more than happy to answer for you (or research and answer if it's a topic I don't already know about). If all you want is the truth then take me up on this offer. As a brief preview here's a summary of the denials roadkill attempted to trick people with and what's wrong with them:



Denial of Six Million

The Denial: Roadkill has claimed that only 300,000 Jews died in the Holocaust. There are two denials here. The first is the number. The second is that they died opposed to being murdered.

The Reality: Six million Jews were exterminated in a planned Genocide by the Nazis.

The Lie: Roadkill cites documents giving only the number that died in concentration camps where records have been found. This is wrong for three reasons. First, not all the deaths occurred in concentration camps. Second, the Nazis destroyed many records. In fact the record books in question are numbered making it easy to see that there are many missing volumes. Third, the Nazis only documented the killing of registered prisoners. When one entered a concentration camp on a train full of thousands of people only a select few were selected to work. These were tattooed with a number that was recorded. The others were sent immediately to the gas chambers to die and then their bodies were incinerated. Only those who were tattooed are included in the records.

The Proof: Historians compiled population statistics. This is how the 6 million number (5.7 to be precise) was achieved. This is the difference in Jewish population before and after the Holocaust. Death figures for specific concentration camps are based on estimates by the numbers of people sent to the camps. Millions were sent to Auschwitz, mere thousands survived. This discrepancy from before to after is the key piece of proof that Holocaust deniers are unable to discredit: Germany 195,000 Austria 53,000 Czechoslovakia 255,000 Denmark 1,500 France 140,000 Belgium 57,000 Luxemburg 3,000 Norway 1,000 Holland 120,000 Italy 20,000 Yugoslavia 64,000 Greece 64,000 Bulgaria 5,000 Rumania 530,000 Hungary 200,000 Poland 3,271,000 USSR 1,050,000 Less dispersed refugees (308,000) Total number of Jews killed 5,721,500


Denial of the Crematoria

The Denial: It is not physically possible for as many people to be incinerated in crematoriums as is claimed. Roadkill cites 30 kg of coke needed per body and that bodies take a long time (hours) to be incinerated. Therefore, because there are no bodies, no genocide occurred.

The Reality: The crematoria used by the Nazis were not the standard crematoria of today. They were advanced pieces of equipment with high efficiency and capacity. The crematoria were more than capable of destroying millions of murdered corpses.

The Lie: Holocaust deniers attempt to use science to prove limits on the efficiency or capacity of crematoria. The first to do this was Mattagno who made efficiency calculations between 30-70 kg of fuel needed per body based on examining the least efficient of the crematoria at a time it was being repaired so very few burnings took place and only included the destruction of registered bodies in his calculations. This number is used to claim that there was not enough fuel to destroy millions of corpses.

The Proof: The Nazis themselves wrote memos giving the actual fuel efficiency and capacity of the crematoria. You can find a photocopy of the memo giving fuel usage in Pressac, Auschwitz, 224. You can find a photocopy of the memo giving the number of people that could be killed each day in Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, 247. The first is a memo from the makers of the crematoria and the second is from SS-Sturmbannfuhrer Jahrling to SS-General Kammler. Specifically Krema II & III at Auschwitz used 5600 kg/day while Krema IV & V used 2240 kg/day. Krema II & III could incinerate 1440 victims a day and Krema IV & V could incinerate 768 victims a day.

Denial of Mass Burnings
The Denial: Mass destruction of bodies from mass burnings, such as those that occurred at Treblinka are impossible. Therefore, there should be bodies. Since there are no bodies the genocide must not have occurred.

The Reality: Mass burnings are not only possible but there is photographic evidence. The Nazis were very careful to destroy the bodies of their victims and the lack of bodies is in no way proof that a genocide did not occur.

The Lie: Holocaust deniers claim that it is physically impossible to have mass burnings of bodies. Furthermore, since no mass graves were found in Krege’s search of Treblinka there was no genocide there. Krege refuses to share his data, only claiming that it proves that the ground is not disturbed. Krege further admits to not searching areas that were marked on aerial photographs as mass graves.

The Proof: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k5-cremation-pits.jpgA photograph taken illegally showing burning of bodies in a pit at Auschwitz. This immediately removes the claim that it is scientifically impossible. Although further proof is available as Hugo Erichsen’s 1887 work Cremation of the Dead records that it is possible to burn more than 200 bodies in under one hour. Turning specifically to Treblinka, originally mass graves were used however this practice quickly stopped in favor of destruction of the bodies. The mass graves were dug up and the bodies destroyed. Polish Judge Lukaszkiewicz who documented the excavation of Treblinka in 1945 and found remains of humans and ash mixed into the soil down to 7.5 meters. The findings are rigorously recorded.

Denial of Gas Chambers

The Denial: The exhaust and poisonous gas chambers never existed.

The Reality: Both types of gas chambers existed and were used to commit genocide.

The Lie: The Leuchter Report shows less traces of poisonous gas in the Auschwitz gas chamber than in the delousing room. However it contains many critical errors (which is to be expected because Leuchter was a historian, not a scientist). Holocaust deniers also claim that the layout of the gas chambers would make them unsafe. Regarding exhaust gas chambers, Holocaust deniers claim that it is impossible to suffocate in diesel fumes and that the chambers would explode from pumping in exhaust.

The Proof: Since insects do not have hemoglobins in their blood it takes a lot more of the poisonous gas to kill insects than human, only 300 ppm. A report from the Cracow Institute for Forensic Research performed the experiments correctly and discovered a significant level of the poisonous gas in the gas chamber walls. The gas chamber set-up, while not meeting modern safety criteria was reasonably safe. Only 300 ppm, in an enclosed space can be diluted to non-lethal levels quite quickly upon being released to the atmosphere. Likewise, obtaining a level of 300 ppm in a room only takes a few minutes. The Auschwitz chamber used a ventilation system to quickly clear the gas chamber of toxic gas. Regarding the exhaust based gas chambers, diesel exhaust, like that from a Russian tank engine, was readily available and quite deadly when pumped into a small, enclosed space, filled with people rapidly using up the oxygen. Suffocation would occur in roughly 30 minutes. The room would not explode as the room was not air tight. As more and more exhaust was pumped in, more and more air would be used up or forced out of the room.

Denial of Concentration Camps

The Denial: Concentration camps were no worse than POW camps.

The Reality: The Nazi concentration camps were death camps where a planned genocide was carried out.

The Lie: Holocaust deniers point to attached POW or labor camps. During the war the Nazis allowed visitors to tour these camps while hiding the death camps. In addition Nazis published propaganda making the camps appear to be humane places.

The Proof: The Nazi concentration camps were not just inhuman but a crime against life itself. The Nazis were aware of their crimes and attempted to prevent the knowledge from getting out. Former SS-Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Hans Müünch testified that: I repeatedly witnessed guided tours of civilians and also of commissions of the Red Cross and other parties within the camp, and I was able to ascertain that the camp leadership arranged it masterfully to conduct these guided tours in such a way that the people being guided around did not see anything about inhuman treatment. The main camp was shown only and in this main camp there were so-called show blocks, particularly block 13, that were especially prepared for such guided tours and that were equipped like a normal soldier's barracks with beds that had sheets on them, and well-functioning washrooms. International Nuremberg Trial (Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1948, Vol. VIII, p. 313-321)

Denial of the Chain of Command

The Denial: Hitler never ordered the Holocaust.

The Reality: The Holocaust was orchestrated at the highest levels of the Nazi government (ie Hitler). Numerous communications using specific code words that translate as ‘‘final solution’’ and ‘‘relocation’’ clearly demonstrate the chain of command went all the way to the top.

The Lie: The lack of a written order by Hitler proves that he had no knowledge of the genocide.

The Proof: Numerous documents exist clearly showing that Hitler was aware of the genocide. Hitler also spoke of his desire to eliminate the Jews in at least three public speeches. In addition Himmler, Eichmann and Hoss all testified that Hitler gave them a verbal order. Fleming’s Hitler and the Final Solution contains much more information on this subject. For a brief list of some examples, go to item 26 in the following link: http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi

[OKlondon]

Oh wtf, I mean seriously do these people really think they are good Muslims. Telling a child to hate a race, and then saying she is good Muslim, is disgraceful.

What the hell has Pepsi got to with the Jewish population, not all Jews are rich and they arent all money grabbers. Its really getting to annoy me how some kids are educated there, to hate another race is wrong and then to say you are a good Muslim. She has been brought up to hate Jews, what on earth has that got to do with Islam. Arabs and Israelis might have there differences, but for the love of god stop bringing in religion. Stop hiding behind Islam, to make your actions just!!!!

[pendinginsanity]

If you want the truth, head over to roadkill's thread and see for yourself. Roadkill went through a lot of holocaust denier ammunition before he gave up, however there was still a lot of ground left to cover. Any question you have about the holocaust I'll be more than happy to answer for you (or research and answer if it's a topic I don't already know about). If all you want is the truth then take me up on this offer. As a brief preview here's a summary of the denials roadkill attempted to trick people with and what's wrong with them:
Especially concerning the crementing of the bodies in Treblinka doesn't add up, and saying they had 'advanced pieces of equipment' doesn't cut it when supposed witnesses have told the court during nuremberg that the gassed people was all dragged over to the OPEN GRILL (no wind shields no nothing, just and open grill that was supposed to be able to burn hundreds of people), that sort of contradict the fact that the Germans had advanced technology.
More so victims claims that the Nazis crushed all the charred remains on tin sheets, but even so teeth would still remain and if 700,000 was killed and burned in Treblinka you would be able to find an overwhelming amount of teeth but such as never been found.

This barber also told how he shaved the jews before they died, the problem was that he claimed that he left the chamber and it only took 5 minutes to gas and then pull away all the dead bodies so a new load of jews could get in, it's physically impossible to gas someone in less than 5 minutes and more so be able to pull them away also.

The fact that they found ABSOLUTELY nothing at places such as Treblinka or Sobibor makes you kind of wonder why the Nazis left decapited people and tons of hair in Auschwitz when such could easily have been disposed of, and just to get you in advance, the Nazis was in no hurry at the time, they left long before the Soviets arrived to Auschwitz.
Also there have never been found 1 single functional gas chamber, the ones standing today in Auschwitz is recreated chambers based on witness claims.
This was also confirmed in the Leuchter report that revealed that there was no traces of Zyklon B on the walls in the supposed gas chambers in Auschwitz.

See THIS (http://onethirdoftheholocaust.com/videos/21_treblinka_and_auschwitz.wmv) video regarding the evidence comparison between Treblinka and Auschwitz.

[sonyfan6]

Most of what you just wrote I've already gone over in the thread with roadkill, but I'm more than willing to go over it again.

First off, I should point out that the place you are getting your information from, in typical denier fashion ignores that 6 million people were killed and attempts to argue that it was scientifically impossible that they were killed. The Jewish population numbers in Europe was 9 million before the war and only 3 million after the war. For many years the American nazi party would argue that the Holocaust was a lie (for all the same reasons that they are currently using) and that the missing Jews were alive and well in the Soviet Union. Well, the Iron Curtain fell and 6 million Jews didn't reappear. This of course destroys the Nazi arguments right there, but this doesn't stop them from repeating the arguments anyway. They now just have no explaination for the disappearance of 6 million Jews.

Now to talk about the specifics.

This conversation should be a two way street so rather than me trying to go into great detail on mass burning of bodies I'm going to ask you to explain why you think mass burnings of bodies is impossible? There are numerous 'psuedo-science' explanations that Nazis have created over the years (of course these don't mean very much compared to all the records both during the Holocaust and many other examples) where mass burnings of bodies have occured. I'm more than willing to talk about the feasibility of mass burnings with you, but please give me a starting point for what argument you've heard that makes you believe that it is impossible. Here's a picture of a mass burning at Auschwitz:http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k5-cremation-pits.jpg

Regarding the differences between Treblinka and Auschwitz there is a very good reason for this. As the Holocaust went on the Nazis continued to refine the process that they used to exterminate people. Treblinka was an earlier camp than Auschwitz and it was closed down in 1943. Krema II in Auschwitz wasn't even operational until March 1943. Basically, as the new, higher efficiency killing complexes became operational, earlier ones, like Treblinka were shut down.

Moving on, you say that there was absolutely nothing found at places such as Treblinka and Sobibor. This is not true. Polish Judge Lukaszkiewicz who documented the excavation of Treblinka in 1945 and found remains of humans and ash mixed into the soil down to 7.5 meters. The findings are rigorously recorded. Records include photographs as well as samples that were gathered. Holocaust deniers like to promote the idea that nothing was found, but this is untrue.

What is true is that there was far less evidence remaining at these sites than Auschwitz. The explaination for this is simple: the Nazis had finished their work in places like Treblinka and had months to 'sanitize' the location. Oppositely, the Nazis had not finished killing everyone at Auschwitz and were forced to flee the camp as the liberating armies approached. There was no time to systematically destroy evidence as had been done previously. The Nazis were in a terrible hurry to leave, although Holocaust deniers will tell you otherwise, even a casual look at a timeline of the war will contradict the deniers' claim.

Moving on to the Auschwitz gas chambers, it should be pointed out that the phrase 'never been found 1 single functional gas chamber' is misleading. They didn't find functional gas chambers but they did find the remains of gas chambers that had been blown up with dynamite. The one standing today is a reconstruction but it is not only based on witness claims. None of the information on the holocaust is based on witness claims alone. It is based on corroborated evidence as any serious historian would insist on. In the case of gas chambers this includes blue prints and shipping documents in addition to testimony by both inmates and nazi guards.

Regarding the Leuchter report I would recommend that you check that source a bit more thoroughly. No one, except someone that already decided that the Holocaust didn't happen, would believe that report. First off, Leuchter wasn't a scientist and as such made numerous mistakes. Basically, what a scientist should have done was to take a chip off some of the original wall material, take it back to a lab, place it under a surface analysis tool and check for cyanide and compare it to areas in the camp where it wasn't used. (This was done by the Cracow Institute for Forensic Research and they found large traces of the chemical.) What Leuchter did was grind the sample down instead of examining the surface (where the highest concentration of residue would be). Even so in his report he finds traces of the chemical but concludes that it was insignificant because he examined a delousing chamber and found higher concentrations in the delousing chamber. This is of course really stupid as it takes much higher concentrations to delouse because cyanide kills humans by interacting with the hemoglobin in their blood.

Regarding the barber question, I need to ask for clarification. Is this the testimony you are referring to from the Shoah?

Abraham Bomba described his experience as a barber in Treblinka:

"We worked inside the gas chamber for about a week or ten days. After that they decided that we will cut their hair in the undressing barrack. [The gas chamber] was not a big room, around twelve feet by twelve feet. But in that room they pushed in a lot of women, almost one on top of another. But like I mentioned before, when we came in, we didn’t know what we were going to do. And then one of the kapos came in and said: ‘Barbers, you have to do a job to make all those women coming in believe that they are just taking a haircut and going in to take a shower, and from there they go out from this place.’ We know already that there is no way of going out from this room, because this room was the last place they went in alive, and they will never go out alive. . . We were waiting there until the transport came in. Women with children pushed in to that place. We the barbers started to cut their hair, and some of them—I would say all of them—some of them knew already what was going to happen to them. We tried to do the best we could—to be the most human we could. . ."

"[The women] were undressed, naked, without clothes, without anything else—completely naked. All the women and all the children, because they came from the undressing barrack—the barrack before going into the gas chamber—where they had undressed themselves. . . .I felt that. . . I got to do what they told be, to cut their hair in a way that it looked like the barber was doing his job for a woman, and I set out to give them both, to take off as much hair as I could, because they needed women’s hair to be transported to Germany. We didn’t [shave them]. We just cut their hair and made believe they were getting a nice haircut. . . In one day there was about, I would say, going into that place between sixty and seventy women in the same room at one time. After we were finished with this party, another party came in, and there were about 140, 150 women. They were all already taken care of, and they told us to leave the gas chamber for a few minutes, about five minutes, when they put in the gas and chocked them to death. . . ."

"We waited outside the gas chamber and on the other side. On this side the women went in and on the other side was a group of working people who took out the dead bodies—some of them not exactly dead. They took them out, and in two minutes—in one minute—everything was clear. It was clean to take in the other party of women and do the same thing they did to the first one. Most of them had long hair—some had short hair. What we had to do was chop off the hair; like I mentioned, the Germans needed the hair for their purposes."

"A friend of mine worked as a barber—he was a good barber in my hometown—when his wife and his sister came into the gas chamber. . . I can’t. It’s too horrible. Please."

[At Lanzmann’s urging he continues, and the translators relates what Bomba said:] "They tried to talk to him . . . . [He] could not tell them this was the last time they stay alive, because behind them was the German Nazis, SS men, and [he] knew that if [he] said a word, not only the wife and the woman, who were dead already, but also [he] would share the same thing with them. In a way, [he] tried to do the best for them, with a second longer, a minute longer, just to hug them and kiss them, because [he] knew they would never see them again."


So the souce of this particular denial read this paragraph and summed it up by saying that the witness is claiming that it took less than five minutes to gas and remove the bodies, that this is impossible and that therefore this testimony is a lie. I would first point out that even the denier's summary is incorrect. No where does Abraham Bomba claim that it took less than five minutes to gas and remove the bodies. He says that he worked in the gas chamber for a little over a week cutting hair before the Nazis decided that this wasn't efficient enough and had them cut the hair in the barracks so no time was wasted cutting hair in the gas chamber. During his week+ working in the gas chamber he describes an occasion where 160 or so women where packed into the tiny room and gassed for five minutes. He goes on to say that after that time not all the women were dead. He then says that a team of people pulled the bodies from the room in a couple minutes. He says nothing about burying or destroying the bodies, just removing them from the room.

For a bit more science with how long it takes suffocate here's a site that has nothing to do with the Holocaust: http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/how_much_oxygen_for_a_person.htm

Lethal levels of oxygen are reached in 10 minutes for a person exercising in 1 cubic meter of air. This can very well apply to people panicing as gas fumes fill a room. Also, there was much less than 1 cubic meter of air per person. With so many people packed into such a small space there is no doubt that lethal levels would be reached extremely quickly and everyone would be dying (although not necessarily dead yet) after five minutes. This analysis doesn't even take into account CO2 poisoning or other such issues, just lack of oxygen. However, it matches what the witness describes exactly.

One of the interesting things about Holocaust denial is that the American nazi party, which invented most of these arguments, looks at specific testimony and then completely invents a rebuttal, such as people can't be gassed in five minutes, and people believe it. Why the Holocaust deniers claims are taken at face value as proof that the vast amount of historical evidence says otherwise is baffling. The analytical mind looking for the truth would instead say "wait these two things contradict each other, which is true? I should examine both and see which one holds up." When one does this they quickly see that the Holocaust deniers don't have any basis for their claims, while the holocaust historians are rigirously researched and undergo critical peer review.

[pendinginsanity]

Most of what you just wrote I've already gone over in the thread with roadkill, but I'm more than willing to go over it again.

First off, I should point out that the place you are getting your information from, in typical denier fashion ignores that 6 million people were killed and attempts to argue that it was scientifically impossible that they were killed. The Jewish population numbers in Europe was 9 million before the war and only 3 million after the war. For many years the American nazi party would argue that the Holocaust was a lie (for all the same reasons that they are currently using) and that the missing Jews were alive and well in the Soviet Union. Well, the Iron Curtain fell and 6 million Jews didn't reappear. This of course destroys the Nazi arguments right there, but this doesn't stop them from repeating the arguments anyway. They now just have no explaination for the disappearance of 6 million Jews.

Now to talk about the specifics.

This conversation should be a two way street so rather than me trying to go into great detail on mass burning of bodies I'm going to ask you to explain why you think mass burnings of bodies is impossible? There are numerous 'psuedo-science' explanations that Nazis have created over the years (of course these don't mean very much compared to all the records both during the Holocaust and many other examples) where mass burnings of bodies have occured. I'm more than willing to talk about the feasibility of mass burnings with you, but please give me a starting point for what argument you've heard that makes you believe that it is impossible. Here's a picture of a mass burning at Auschwitz:http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k5-cremation-pits.jpg

Regarding the differences between Treblinka and Auschwitz there is a very good reason for this. As the Holocaust went on the Nazis continued to refine the process that they used to exterminate people. Treblinka was an earlier camp than Auschwitz and it was closed down in 1943. Krema II in Auschwitz wasn't even operational until March 1943. Basically, as the new, higher efficiency killing complexes became operational, earlier ones, like Treblinka were shut down.

Moving on, you say that there was absolutely nothing found at places such as Treblinka and Sobibor. This is not true. Polish Judge Lukaszkiewicz who documented the excavation of Treblinka in 1945 and found remains of humans and ash mixed into the soil down to 7.5 meters. The findings are rigorously recorded. Records include photographs as well as samples that were gathered. Holocaust deniers like to promote the idea that nothing was found, but this is untrue.

What is true is that there was far less evidence remaining at these sites than Auschwitz. The explaination for this is simple: the Nazis had finished their work in places like Treblinka and had months to 'sanitize' the location. Oppositely, the Nazis had not finished killing everyone at Auschwitz and were forced to flee the camp as the liberating armies approached. There was no time to systematically destroy evidence as had been done previously. The Nazis were in a terrible hurry to leave, although Holocaust deniers will tell you otherwise, even a casual look at a timeline of the war will contradict the deniers' claim.

Moving on to the Auschwitz gas chambers, it should be pointed out that the phrase 'never been found 1 single functional gas chamber' is misleading. They didn't find functional gas chambers but they did find the remains of gas chambers that had been blown up with dynamite. The one standing today is a reconstruction but it is not only based on witness claims. None of the information on the holocaust is based on witness claims alone. It is based on corroborated evidence as any serious historian would insist on. In the case of gas chambers this includes blue prints and shipping documents in addition to testimony by both inmates and nazi guards.

Regarding the Leuchter report I would recommend that you check that source a bit more thoroughly. No one, except someone that already decided that the Holocaust didn't happen, would believe that report. First off, Leuchter wasn't a scientist and as such made numerous mistakes. Basically, what a scientist should have done was to take a chip off some of the original wall material, take it back to a lab, place it under a surface analysis tool and check for cyanide and compare it to areas in the camp where it wasn't used. (This was done by the Cracow Institute for Forensic Research and they found large traces of the chemical.) What Leuchter did was grind the sample down instead of examining the surface (where the highest concentration of residue would be). Even so in his report he finds traces of the chemical but concludes that it was insignificant because he examined a delousing chamber and found higher concentrations in the delousing chamber. This is of course really stupid as it takes much higher concentrations to delouse because cyanide kills humans by interacting with the hemoglobin in their blood.

Regarding the barber question, I need to ask for clarification. Is this the testimony you are referring to from the Shoah?
I've seen the supposed numbers of jews in europe before 1939 and there was barely 6 million jews in germany occupied areas to begin with, that'd mean that virtually every jew in europe would have been killed, unlikely.

And you can't use that Auschwitz burning picture for anything, because that's not how it was described in Treblinka, it was an open grill, yes litterly a grill where people was put ontop of it and burned, laws of physics simply doesn't allow humans to burn the way the witnesses claims it happend.

And yes I'm refering to that quote of yours, it's there black on white, 5 minutes for them to choke to death and drag them away, first of all it takes much longer than 5 minutes to choke somebody to death, especially taking into consideration of how the gas chamber was build, second you'd also have to remove all the people, clean up all their (sorry my direct worduse) **** (yes people **** when they're afraid) before the next pack of jews could be put in the room.

And yes nazi guards and inmates have admitted the crime, but there's no proof whatsoever that these people wasn't tortured, they were in the custody of soviets after all, and we both know how they dealt with the enemy.

[sonyfan6]

I've seen the supposed numbers of jews in europe before 1939 and there was barely 6 million jews in germany occupied areas to begin with, that'd mean that virtually every jew in europe would have been killed, unlikely.

And you can't use that Auschwitz burning picture for anything, because that's not how it was described in Treblinka, it was an open grill, yes litterly a grill where people was put ontop of it and burned, laws of physics simply doesn't allow humans to burn the way the witnesses claims it happend.

And yes I'm refering to that quote of yours, it's there black on white, 5 minutes for them to choke to death and drag them away, first of all it takes much longer than 5 minutes to choke somebody to death, especially taking into consideration of how the gas chamber was build, second you'd also have to remove all the people, clean up all their (sorry my direct worduse) **** (yes people **** when they're afraid) before the next pack of jews could be put in the room.

And yes nazi guards and inmates have admitted the crime, but there's no proof whatsoever that these people wasn't tortured, they were in the custody of soviets after all, and we both know how they dealt with the enemy.

Please, pendinginsanity, if you actually want to think for yourself stop relying on information from Nazis/deniers.

Your six million in Europe number is demonstratably false. Where on earth did you get this number from? Every published population figure shows 9 million in the period before the war (1933-1939). It's not just a total either, it's broken down by country. Furthermore, when examined at a local level, the population figures match completely with the numbers transported to the ghettos and this in turn matches with the estimates based on numbers put in trains and the number of train trips from the ghettos to the death camps. There is not a single Holocaust historian that has recorded the six million number 'because Jews told him.' The six million number was determined by historians, scholars and researchers immediately following the war. Jews discussing the Holocaust give the historians numbers, not the other way around.

Once again, regarding the mass burnings, please tell me why you think it goes against the laws of physics? I'm an engineer who's studied physics and I'm unaware of a law that states it's impossible to burn people on grills. I'm stunned that you're willing to accept people being burned in a pit but not on a grill. Holocaust deniers tend to claim that it was impossible to burn people in a pit because of lack of oxygen to feed the fire. Therefore, if anything it would be easier to burn people on a grill. What is the physical impossibility here? I'll address it specifically if you tell me what your problem with this concept is. It seems like, just as the population statistics, you've just heard someone tell you it's physically impossible and believed them. Why is it physically impossible?

Regarding the Shoah quote, what's wrong with this? Why can't people die from being crammed into a confined space with 150 other people and having diesel pumped into the room? What is the issue here? Once again, you're just taking something a Nazi/denier told you was impossible at face value. This shows some serious bias on your part that you're willing to take someone's word that it's physically impossible as a means of discounting evidence (in this case testimony) that is directly in front of you. Why take the Nazi/denier at his word? Has he shoved 150 people into a confined space, gassed them with diesel fumes and is reporting that they walked out unharmed? Otherwise, what 'scientific' principle is he basing this claim on? I've already pointed out that from a pure calculation of oxygen content in the room it's entirely possible, not even taking into account the diesel fumes, CO2 poisoning, etc.

Once again, Holocaust denial was invented by the American Nazi party as a means of making national socialism a viable political option. It's been picked up by other groups as well but the denials always stay the same. Why is it that people are willing to take what is originally the word of a Nazi (when the denial was first created although it may be repeated by non-Nazis who are also deniers) with absolutely no backing? A nazi said it was impossible so it's automatically true and we can throw out all the evidence in books and museums that was carefully and academically gathered and critically reviewed by historians for years? How can one man's claim of impossibility, offered without any scientific backing, be worth that much?

[Knuckles126]

Put the 'Jesus Camp' video and this Arab video side by side and tell me, whats the difference? :?

[DINAMO788]

jesus camp is much scarier?

[DayWalker]

jesus camp is much scarier?

:lol:

they are pretty damn close!!!!!

Man and religion= scary :|

[shcndw]

Man + Women = More idiots...
Were too Arrogant.

[DayWalker]

Man + Women = More idiots...
Were to Arrogant.

:lol:

what the hell did you just say???

[shcndw]

I dunno, What did you say? I'm confused atm.

[girlgamer1984]

What I don't comprehend is the video on which this entire thread is based. A three year old would even fathom politics? If you people believe then go and educate yourselves and then post some intelligent vindications.

[Knuckles126]

Man + Women = More idiots...
Were too Arrogant.
Thank goodness we don't live by that logic, otherwise humans would go extinct! :shock:

[Firefox]

Egypt attacked Isreal first. They attacked in order to try and regain the Gaza strip. Isreal was a country created because the jews had no homes and were attacked and suffered horribly during WW2.
it's land, if anyone should have a right to it it is the people who lost a quarter of there population. Ever since Isreal was created they have been attacked by palestinian countries. Isreal has beent he country attacked, just because there the stronger country they are the eil ones? I do admit jews have commited some crimes but next to palestine who uses civilian shields they are clean. Hell in Lebanon Isreal was dropping warnings before bombs taking away the chance of surprise.

Well Israeli troops have used Palestinian children for human shields as well
There are good and bad people on both sides.

People stop picking sides, if you don't want good for BOTH Israelis and Palestinians, you are just a part of the problem.

[DINAMO788]

i believe we have but just to make sure, you're not talking about those miscaptioned pictures that were spread when in fact israeli soldiers were doing the opposite are you?

regardless the video never even played for me.

it might be the same video but have you seen the kids shows there? with the micky mouse rip off who teaches kids hate and all that jazz

[kmh22]

The Jews are just protecting themselves from the arab terrorists. and Jews have lived in that area for ever it wasnt arab land. The arabs wont settle down until all jews are either dead or have moved from their homes. Most Palestianians want peace with Israel but they arent allowed by Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Kuwait, Bahrain these arab states which fund the terrorists to kill Jews.

Pendinginsanity you are a racist and a nazi anti-semite you will get whats comming to you.
Note that the Philistines lived in that land before the Jews, and that many of those original Jews who settled there actually became Muslim and spoke Arabic over the intervening years.

Either way you look at it, the land belongs to the people who live there, not to immigrants from foreign countries who subsequently move in and kick the natives out.

[Firefox]

i believe we have but just to make sure, you're not talking about those miscaptioned pictures that were spread when in fact israeli soldiers were doing the opposite are you?

regardless the video never even played for me.

it might be the same video but have you seen the kids shows there? with the micky mouse rip off who teaches kids hate and all that jazz

Well I was referring to this incident: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3650791.stm

But regardless, I just wanted to make a point that there are many good Israelis, and good Palestinians on both sides.

[shcndw]

Yes, but think about the Iraqi's!

Every country in the world has good people and bad people, you can't run away from the fact.

[kmh22]

Egypt attacked Isreal first. They attacked in order to try and regain the Gaza strip. Isreal was a country created because the jews had no homes and were attacked and suffered horribly during WW2.
it's land, if anyone should have a right to it it is the people who lost a quarter of there population. Ever since Isreal was created they have been attacked by palestinian countries. Isreal has beent he country attacked, just because there the stronger country they are the eil ones? I do admit jews have commited some crimes but next to palestine who uses civilian shields they are clean. Hell in Lebanon Isreal was dropping warnings before bombs taking away the chance of surprise.
The issue isn't that it's land. Rather, it is land that people (Palestinians) lived on and continue to live on. It's one thing to live on unclaimed land. It's another to kick people out of their homes at gunpoint, then claim that it was your home all along -- and you cannot use the Holocaust as an excuse for doing this either. Palestinians did not create the Holocaust; they're only being given there own Holocaust.

Read the histories of how the early settlements were started. You might change your mind as to how 'innocently deserving' invaders were in stealing Palestinian land.

[girlgamer1984]

Israels imploring for kindheartedness for their society because of something like holocaust that took place so long ago not to state the numbers are exaggerated is truly pitiable. What I don't fathom is how countries like US continue to aid Israel when they are factually terrorizing the Palestinian community. Bulldozing their abodes callously, shooting innocent kids. I don't know who the terrorists are? The Israeli government and their entourage or the sufferers here.

[Sil3ntT3ears]

Thanks to hilary clinton Israel will not recieve any official aid from usa in 2008.

[girlgamer1984]

Actually I will believe it when I perceive it with my own eyes. So as they say "seeing is believing"...Thence till then this is just a speculative hullabaloo for me.

[Firefox]

Thanks to hilary clinton Israel will not recieve any official aid from usa in 2008.

You serious? I thought she was the most pro-Israeli presidential candidate.

[Sil3ntT3ears]

You serious? I thought she was the most pro-Israeli presidential candidate.

when the elections are near all candidates are pro-Israel.
but that doesnt even matter Israel has sooo much money its insignificant. All that Israel needs is for the US to veto UN resolutions and condemnations and they are fine.

However Bushs relationship with the oil sheikhs has really hurt Israel and you can even feel the shift of opinion regarding the Israel-Palestine situation in the past few years. This is bad as the sheikhs want all of Palestine back and kick all the Jews out as they see the land as "arab land". They fund Hamas and other terrorist organizations and wont allow the Palestinians to live in peace with the Jews. Its like the Arab states are fighting a war with Israel using Palestinians.

[jakedubbleya]

America: 3 year old hippie "brainwashed" to hate showers.

just showing how ridiculous this story is to me.

She's 3, duh she's impressionable. I mean jeez didn't you guys hear about that mormon girl in her early teens that got kidnapped by uber mormons and is now a crazy brainwashed psyco after she got returned to her family a year later?

In response to the current topic of "which religious group sucks more balls?":

Satanists.

[jakedubbleya]

Note that the Philistines lived in that land before the Jews, and that many of those original Jews who settled there actually became Muslim and spoke Arabic over the intervening years.

Either way you look at it, the land belongs to the people who live there, not to immigrants from foreign countries who subsequently move in and kick the natives out.

just FYI, Islam only be like 1350 yrs old. Just making sure everyone remembers that. And when it it did come around it came around through conquest, not a big enlightenment of all Arab peoples.

[girlgamer1984]

Islam actually came about 1500 years ago and it did not came through conquests but normal preaching methodologies.

[gigadigit]

what about the whole world get together and get an island in the Caribbeans (bigger than the size of israel) and give it to the jews so that they can leave the land in middle east. They get to stay in a paradise away from all the enemy. Everybody is happy?

Is that small piece of land worth death of so many people in the world?
Does it make sense? What would GOD think about that? Death of so many people for a small piece of land.

[Sventax]

I keep seing this propaganda of Jews trying to tell the world how bad these poore people are....I am tired of hearing this...it's like they want to brainwash us with this propaganda and messages of them....The world knows what the Palestinians do and what the Jews do....we know that the Palistinians...try to protect there self with every mean possible and try to win their freedom and dignity....so what is your point Imgoingnuts??

And ofcoz no jew is pig nor ape she has been fed with hate...and not hate against jews....but against people who try to exterminate them slowly....people who try to break them down...people who wants them to kneel before them..people without homes shame on You people who call yourself Jews...SHAME!!

[Sventax]

Thanks to hilary clinton Israel will not recieve any official aid from usa in 2008.


AND THIS IS THE REASON WHY I WANTED HILLARY......

I'm am not a US citizen

[Sventax]

just FYI, Islam only be like 1350 yrs old. Just making sure everyone remembers that. And when it it did come around it came around through conquest, not a big enlightenment of all Arab peoples.


Euhmmm the Religion was part of the conquest my dear friend...
But As you know everybody wanted more land and more riches...
Don't forget that the Christians were the beast for a thousand year....

This is why religion brings evil upon men......I would like to see every religion banned from this planet....

[girlgamer1984]

Lol Do not post more than once. Edit your posts and add all this in a single one or your posts will get deleted or you'll receive an infraction.

[PlayStation Fascination]

But lets be honest here, even if God showed himself without pants telling that the Holocaust was a fraud the Jews would still believe it happend, there's just no way that'' change, because if it was a lie it would mean that the Jews are lowlife scumbags that lied to the world and exploited them so they could get Israel and financial backup correct? So even if the evidence was so overwhelming that it didn't happend they'd still say it did happend so there's really no point in doing so.

That also leads me to the next thing, I'm out of this thread.

Good because you have spread more than enough racist poison here. I was goint to comment on the video but there are way too many Jew haters here. I'm not going to waste my time.

[DINAMO788]

i'd like sven to be gone from this thread too. besides from being openly anti-israeli and anti-jewish he cannot form a coherent point.

and religion doesn't bring about evil in man. its our own wickedness stop blaming religion just because thats the medium that many chose to use.

and jake my god you completely missed the whole point of the thread. obviously its nothing special that shes easily manipulated and brainwashed, the shock comes from the subject of the brainwashing....which is extreme hate and prejudgice again jews.

[DB713]

:lol:
Nah more like the people having stock in the oil companies :???:

Well according to Fox News God is the largest Stock holder of all major oil companies.

[Knuckles126]

i'd like sven to be gone from this thread too. besides from being openly anti-israeli and anti-jewish he cannot form a coherent point.

and religion doesn't bring about evil in man. its our own wickedness stop blaming religion just because thats the medium that many chose to use.

and jake my god you completely missed the whole point of the thread. obviously its nothing special that shes easily manipulated and brainwashed, the shock comes from the subject of the brainwashing....which is extreme hate and prejudgice again jews.
It's only shocking for those who have never seen such things. This has been going on for a very long time.

The Jews and Muslims hate each other...they worship a different God, or so I hear, and of course that isn't going to go well with either party. So the 'my god is better than your god' battle will continue until these 'tards become intelligent and reasonable. Until that time, I'm just going to sit back and watch them shoot the hell outta each other on the news. ;)

[zeon9881]

this coruppted

dont get my religeon involved into this

listen to me carefully, i myself am a muslim

i have read the quran

and you tell that this video is fake by somethings in it

one if you look closely

quran is spelled kuran and trust me arabian television wont make this mistake

quran dosnt teach to hate people GOD islam is the opposite of that

islam in english means PEACE

in the quran it makes fun of noONE

this video is a FAKE or otherwise the subtitles

--------------------

PEOPLE listen to me our religeon arnt diffrent and im talking about most of the religeos in the world

mosas i think is god to them but in our religeon he is a messenger

jesus is son of god but in our religeon he is another messenger

oh and dont say "jews hate muslims and vica versa" because your putting religeon into this

when is shouldnt even be IN their

[jakedubbleya]

OOh cool! A bunch of responses! Well here we go:

Islam actually came about 1500 years ago and it did not came through conquests but normal preaching methodologies.


Age of Islam: Debatable, pseudo Islamic theologies had been around for a while which allowed for Mohammed's religion to take hold in his society. I say 1350 because it wasn't propagated in its full form and recognized until the mid 600's.

"Method of Conversion:" Might want to check the history books on that one again my dear, the initial growth of Islam is a tale of military conquest and mass forced conversion.


Euhmmm the Religion was part of the conquest my dear friend...
But As you know everybody wanted more land and more riches...
Don't forget that the Christians were the beast for a thousand year....

This is why religion brings evil upon men......I would like to see every religion banned from this planet....

Christianity was persecuted for 500 years before it took permanent hold. That's 500 years of pure martyrdom and grit, something the Muslims cannot claim. The crusades were not some big offensive anti-Islamic jihad, contrary to your anti-Catholic public school text books I know. In fact quite the opposite, the wars were completely defensive, retaking Jerusalem and defending Europe. A defense which failed in Spain and was miraculous to have held in the rest of Europe. If the Arabs had decided to invade Europe from the east we would all be suicide bombers (bombing the Buddhists maybe... I dunno) right now. At many points the size of Moorish forces were many times the size of all of Europe's forces combined and an invasion would have been unstoppable.

and jake my god you completely missed the whole point of the thread. obviously its nothing special that shes easily manipulated and brainwashed, the shock comes from the subject of the brainwashing....which is extreme hate and prejudgice again jews.

Oh, sorry, I thought everybody already knew Muslim's hated Jews:P

Anyway theres some real anti-semitic remarks goin' around. Makin me sick, I can't believe it. You people need to learn to respect the stuff worth respecting, Judaism and the plight of Jews is one of those things. Carrot Top: No. Oldest Religion still kickin? Yes.

[Firefox]

when the elections are near all candidates are pro-Israel.
but that doesnt even matter Israel has sooo much money its insignificant. All that Israel needs is for the US to veto UN resolutions and condemnations and they are fine.

However Bushs relationship with the oil sheikhs has really hurt Israel and you can even feel the shift of opinion regarding the Israel-Palestine situation in the past few years. This is bad as the sheikhs want all of Palestine back and kick all the Jews out as they see the land as "arab land". They fund Hamas and other terrorist organizations and wont allow the Palestinians to live in peace with the Jews. Its like the Arab states are fighting a war with Israel using Palestinians.

That is actually a wrong perception, the thing is they funded and
voted for Hamas because they lost trust in Fatah, since there was
corruption going on. I wouldn't blame them...the situation in Palestine
is just not as easy as being "good guys" or "bad guys".

Age of Islam: Debatable, pseudo Islamic theologies had been around for a while which allowed for Mohammed's religion to take hold in his society. I say 1350 because it wasn't propagated in its full form and recognized until the mid 600's.

"Method of Conversion:" Might want to check the history books on that one again my dear, the initial growth of Islam is a tale of military conquest and mass forced conversion.Studying all world religions...especially Islam I would have to say that is wrong. That is a
myth. The Quran says: "Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject."(18:29)

If you want to talk about books- Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his book, "The Preaching of Islam", Marshall G. Hodgson in his book, "The Venture of Islam"...just coming from some foremost historians in the matter....

Also Islam in Ethiopia, the muslims there were denied to spread their
religion there..they followed the ruling but it still spread all throughout N.Africa, how?
because of their kindness and etiquette in dealings and tradings.
It is the same reason Islam spread in Indonesia, China, Malaysia
and many other countries: "Morality, and Respect for every person".

Islam is the Fastest growing religion, even now... and there is no war
right now.

One final point, during the time of Muhammad Islam got many more
converts during the time of peace when they signed a peace treaty
between them and their oppressors then during the time of war.

History my friend, shows the opposite...
If the Arabs had decided to invade Europe from the east we would all be suicide bombers (bombing the Buddhists maybe... I dunno) right now. At many points the size of Moorish forces were many times the size of all of Europe's forces combined and an invasion would have been unstoppable.
That is very stereotypical...I would like you to know that before the fall
of Baghdad from the Mongolian Empire, it was a centre of knowledge, in
fact in Europe they have used a great Baghdad's scholars medical books
for 500 years, Algebra comes from Arabia (from word Al-Jabra), and
a lot of advances in Astronomy and math as well.

I am sorry but you seem to have a very negative view of Islam, and it was
the Ottomans who took Spain...they were Turkish.

I just call to everyone to have open mind of ALL religions and to not
attack a religion if you yourself have not studied detailed history
and have studied personal accounts and stories in history.

[roadkill]

That is actually a wrong perception, the thing is they funded and
voted for Hamas because they lost trust in Fatah, since there was
corruption going on. I wouldn't blame them...the situation in Palestine
is just not as easy as being "good guys" or "bad guys".

Studying all world religions...especially Islam I would have to say that is wrong. That is a
myth. The Quran says: "Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject."(18:29)

If you want to talk about books- Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his book, "The Preaching of Islam", Marshall G. Hodgson in his book, "The Venture of Islam"...just coming from some foremost historians in the matter....

Also Islam in Ethiopia, the muslims there were denied to spread their
religion there..they followed the ruling but it still spread all throughout N.Africa, how?
because of their kindness and etiquette in dealings and tradings.
It is the same reason Islam spread in Indonesia, China, Malaysia
and many other countries: "Morality, and Respect for every person".

Islam is the Fastest growing religion, even now... and there is no war
right now.

One final point, during the time of Muhammad Islam got many more
converts during the time of peace when they signed a peace treaty
between them and their oppressors then during the time of war.

History my friend, shows the opposite...

That is very stereotypical...I would like you to know that before the fall
of Baghdad from the Mongolian Empire, it was a centre of knowledge, in
fact in Europe they have used a great Baghdad's scholars medical books
for 500 years, Algebra comes from Arabia (from word Al-Jabra), and
a lot of advances in Astronomy and math as well.

I am sorry but you seem to have a very negative view of Islam, and it was
the Ottomans who took Spain...they were Turkish.

I just call to everyone to have open mind of ALL religions and to not
attack a religion if you yourself have not studied detailed history
and have studied personal accounts and stories in history.


lol, you must be new to this forum. The collective capacity for independent thought matches that of an early model Atari RAM capacity. If the American media tommorow told them - "Breaking News: Islam found to have originated in Mars, landed in Roswell in 1947. In other news, oranges are really apples"

... They'd believe both.

Double thinkers and double speakers. This forum reminds me of 1984.

[girlgamer1984]

OOh cool! A bunch of responses! Well here we go:




Age of Islam: Debatable, pseudo Islamic theologies had been around for a while which allowed for Mohammed's religion to take hold in his society. I say 1350 because it wasn't propagated in its full form and recognized until the mid 600's.

"Method of Conversion:" Might want to check the history books on that one again my dear, the initial growth of Islam is a tale of military conquest and mass forced conversion.



Christianity was persecuted for 500 years before it took permanent hold. That's 500 years of pure martyrdom and grit, something the Muslims cannot claim. The crusades were not some big offensive anti-Islamic jihad, contrary to your anti-Catholic public school text books I know. In fact quite the opposite, the wars were completely defensive, retaking Jerusalem and defending Europe. A defense which failed in Spain and was miraculous to have held in the rest of Europe. If the Arabs had decided to invade Europe from the east we would all be suicide bombers (bombing the Buddhists maybe... I dunno) right now. At many points the size of Moorish forces were many times the size of all of Europe's forces combined and an invasion would have been unstoppable.



Oh, sorry, I thought everybody already knew Muslim's hated Jews:P

Anyway theres some real anti-semitic remarks goin' around. Makin me sick, I can't believe it. You people need to learn to respect the stuff worth respecting, Judaism and the plight of Jews is one of those things. Carrot Top: No. Oldest Religion still kickin? Yes.

Unlike you I don't spout nonsensical assertions without vindications. Might want to give proof to back your statements. Secondly would you adore some one for killing your family and bulldozing your home? I think not.

[jakedubbleya]

Studying all world religions...especially Islam I would have to say that is wrong. That is a
myth. The Quran says: "Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject."(18:29)

If you want to talk about books- Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his book, "The Preaching of Islam", Marshall G. Hodgson in his book, "The Venture of Islam"...just coming from some foremost historians in the matter....

Also Islam in Ethiopia, the muslims there were denied to spread their
religion there..they followed the ruling but it still spread all throughout N.Africa, how?
because of their kindness and etiquette in dealings and tradings.
It is the same reason Islam spread in Indonesia, China, Malaysia
and many other countries: "Morality, and Respect for every person".

Islam is the Fastest growing religion, even now... and there is no war
right now.

One final point, during the time of Muhammad Islam got many more
converts during the time of peace when they signed a peace treaty
between them and their oppressors then during the time of war.


Sidestepping the duh's, heres a bit of fun for you, (the only educated person in this forum), I hope it reaches your high standards of personal research. I'll leave my credentials at the door, because they have nothing to do with our discussion.

"The Apostle had instructed his commanders when they entered Mecca only to fight those who resisted them, except a small number who were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the Kaba." (Sira, p550)
Volume 3, Book 29, Number 72; Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle entered Mecca in the year of its Conquest wearing an Arabian helmet on his head and when the Prophet took it off, a person came and said, "Ibn Khatal is holding the covering of the Kaba (taking refuge in the Kaba)." The Prophet said, "Kill him." Following the conquest of Mecca, Muhammad outlined the future of his religion.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177; Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour {of the Last Judgment} will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24; Narrated Ibn Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
Muhammad himself threatened the Eastern Roman Emperor in Constantinople, Hera****us with conversion or invasion. This was to become the norm prior to invading a nation.

So it was, almost without exception, in every conquered territory at the time and for centuries, non-Muslims paid special taxes, enjoyed lower social status and were often enslaved so as to have their children converted.

That is very stereotypical...I would like you to know that before the fall
of Baghdad from the Mongolian Empire, it was a centre of knowledge, in
fact in Europe they have used a great Baghdad's scholars medical books
for 500 years, Algebra comes from Arabia (from word Al-Jabra), and
a lot of advances in Astronomy and math as well.

I am sorry but you seem to have a very negative view of Islam, and it was
the Ottomans who took Spain...they were Turkish.

I just call to everyone to have open mind of ALL religions and to not
attack a religion if you yourself have not studied detailed history
and have studied personal accounts and stories in history.

First, let us remember that Islam did not bring culture to its newfound subjects, but rather adopted it. Note the origins of the Arabs and the origins of the peoples they conquered, the Arabs were a bunch of dirty desert rats, Byzantine and Persia were the cultural centers of the world.

No actually, it was the Arabs who took Spain, they got as far as Tours, France in 732. The Turks (who were Islamic btw) were the ones who laid siege to Europe during the Crusades etc. (11th-17th century).

I am not anti-Islam, I am anti-ignorance. I never claimed that Islamic countries never contributed to the world. I only try and make sure we know that just because Cat Stevens converted that doesn't make it all peaceful and perfect.

[jakedubbleya]

Unlike you I don't spout nonsensical assertions without vindications. Might want to give proof to back your statements.

My responce:
Islam actually came about 1500 years ago and it did not came through conquests but normal preaching methodologies.
---------------------------------------------------------
Secondly would you adore some one for killing your family and bulldozing your home? I think not.
??? It's an ugly world, thats why I joined the army. But what that statement has to do with anything, I dunno.

[Firefox]

If you are doing meaningful quotes...do it from the Quran...God's word.
Not narrations and hadiths (accounts) that are weak.

I would need to see a valid source.