Re: Holocaust.

[roadkill]

In response to Sonyfans invitation, "bring it on", in another thread. I'll start by asking four scientific, historical and logistical questions on the issue. If your best response to these questions is to return with an "anti semite" rant, then i suggest you avoid the discussion altogether.

1) Where did the Germans - who were strapped for supplies on all fronts, get the fuel to cremate 6,000,000 bodies?

2) Why were there similar claims of a "holocaust of 6,000,000" after WWI, despite this being blatantly untrue?

3) Why are there no cyanide traces on the walls of the alleged homicidal gas chambers?

4) Why would the Germans commit mass murder when they know the war is lost? They would effectively be signing their own death warrants.


Direct answers will suffice, if you want to the history of anti-semitism, create a seperate thread. These are scientific and logistical questions.

[Kougaiji]

Before I fully answer your questions please take the time to read over/reply to these points concerning each of your questions.

1. 6mil bodies were not cremated (and the more conservative figures estimate around 5.3mil - conservative meaning their based only on recorded killings, not estimates on non-recorded ones), but they died in labor camps, gas chambers, ghettos, air raids, and cremations as well.

2. Uhm... i don't know why people make claims *shrug*. If it's untrue, why bring up people's motives of over 70 years ago? How does relate to the wwii holocaust, which did happen?

3. Cyanide-based insecticides were only used in 2 camps, Auschwitz and Majdanek. Others used carbon-monoxide and some were gassed in "gas cars" in trains. I'd also like to see your sources for this claim. If you wish for people to argue reasonably, please bring the reasons behind the argument.

4. The mass murder started before "the war was lost" and it continued throughout. Toward the end, as their country was being invaded and the camps destroyed, I logically assume that the nazis began retreating and regrouping. However, taking hundreds of thousands of jews with them as they flee could be considered a slight slow-down, just a teensy obstacle. It's safe to assume that they attempted to finish the job and clear the camps (by killing the inmates) as fast as possible so that they could retreat. Seriously, you don't suppose that it would have been more efficient for them to be liable for that many jews as they escape, especially considering that most of them would have been together and surely would have realized how much they outnumber their holders.



The method of killing at these camps was by poison gas, usually in gas chambers, although many prisoners were killed in mass shootings and by other means. At the pure extermination camps, all the prisoners arrived by train, and were taken directly from the platforms to a reception area where all their clothes and other possessions were taken, and women had their heads shaved (the hair was used to make felt). They were then herded naked into the gas chambers: usually they were told these were showers or delousing chambers. Solid pellets of Zyklon-B were dropped into the chambers, releasing a toxic gas, and those within died within minutes.
The gas was then pumped out, the bodies were removed, and any gold fillings in their teeth were extracted with pliers. The bodies of those killed were destroyed in crematoria (except at Sobibór where they were cremated on outdoor pyres), and the ashes buried or scattered. All this work was done by Jews known as Sonderkommandos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommandos), who thus bought themselves a few extra months of life. The camps were run by SS officers, but most of the guards were Ukrainian or Baltic auxiliaries. Regular German soldiers were kept well away from the camps.

[sonyfan6]

First, let me point out that this is a continuation from another thread: http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=70836 where, for those who were not paying attention, roadkill began by making a post denying modern day anti-semitic incidents. He then denied, denying. Finally, he went so far as to repeat an article made by a well known Holocaust denier: Dan Gannon. I pointed out the flaws in Dan Gannons arguments and exposed roadkill as a Holocaust denier himself.

There are two important things to note in this.

1) You cannot deny the Holocaust without being anti-semitic. This is because the denial of the Holocaust, which was documented as it was happening by the Nazis themselves, reported by the Jewish and colloborated with physical evidence, is the best documented genocide in history. To deny it means to deny the physical evidence as being falsified. Further, it requires that one disregard the testimony of survivors as lies. Finally, it requires that you throw out the Nazi confessions and the acceptance of this version of history by the Germans as a whole. The way that the typical Holocaust denier will explain away all this evidence is to invoke a Jewish conspiracy, in which Jews, who control the world government, blackmailed Germany into verifying a fake Holocaust to satisfy their greed (in the form of reparation money and a country Israel). This argument is inherently irrational and will only be believed by someone who already is anti-semitic.

2) As all Holocaust deniers, roadkill relies on spreading misinformation. The goal is not to educate but rather to spread hate. The creators of Holocaust denial strategies always know that their own work and citations are false. As Deborah Lipstadt wrote in her book on the subject:
These works demonstrate how deniers misstate, misquote, falsify statistics, and falsely attribute conclusions to reliable sources. They rely on books that directly contradict their arguments, quoting in a manner that completely distorts the authors' objectives. Deniers count on the fact that the vast majority of readers will not have access to the documentation or make the effort to determine how they have falsified or miscontrued information. Roadkill engaged in these very behaviors in the previous thread. He hopes to start with a clean slate here, but you can go back and read his previous posts with very little effort as well as my responses to them: http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=70836

Now then, as I've reminded everyone to be very wary of roadkill's credentials and sources, let's answer his questions. Please keep in mind that I am not going to argue with roadkill. He's Holocaust denial is deep rooted and there is no way that I will convince him otherwise. My responses are intended for other readers, who will have the benefit of seeing how Holocaust deniers, like roadkill, manipulate the facts.

1) Where did the Germans - who were strapped for supplies on all fronts, get the fuel to cremate 6,000,000 bodies?


In point of fact the Germans were very interested in conserving fuel. So much so, that they ran experiments to discover the efficiency of incinerating bodies in various stages of starvation (ie different amounts of body fat). It was discovered that a combination of bodies with no fat remaining and bodies that still had some fat burned the most efficiently. For further evidence one need only look in the German patent office to find the patent for the incineration ovens that were used in the concentration camps. Normal crematories have only one spot for a body and one fire. Hence the need for new technology, which as I already mentioned was patented in the German patent office, where one fire feeds three chambers where bodies could be burned and the fat drip back down into the fire, feeding the flames.

Another important point is that the crematories were really incinerators. As the site points out: http://www.holocaust-history.org/dachau-gas-chambers/
It must be pointed out that the ovens at Dachau or other Nazi camps are not, strictly speaking, "crematoriums." A conventional "crematorium" is designed to cremate one body at a time. This implies a heating cycle, an incineration cycle, a cooling cycle, and the recovery of ashes from the deceased. An oven that cremates bodies in a continuous manner is more aptly called an "incinerator". Cremations of cadavers, in this last case, are carried out with no cooling period or recovery of ashes between cremations. New corpses are simply fed into the ovens as the old ones are consumed. The cost of operation of an "incinerator" is considerably lower than that of a "crematorium," and the efficiency is considerably higher.

Further reading of that website will reveal some of the reasons why killing ramped up at different times during the war. Essentially the Nazis were always limited by what to do with the bodies. Killing was the easy part, disposing of the body hard. The Nazis continued to make technological advances throughout the war to dispose of bodies faster and more efficiently.

2) Why were there similar claims of a "holocaust of 6,000,000" after WWI, despite this being blatantly untrue?

Well, for those not paying attention I already directly answered this point on the previous thread. However, as I said before, roadkill will continue to promote these points even if I refute them. Since the benefit is for you, the reader, and not roadkill, I will repost what I already wrote on the last thread. This comes from http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/wwi-holocaust-01.html a site dedicated to showing how Holocaust deniers manipulate citations to prove their points. The particular accusation that roadkill is repeating was originally made by Dan Gannon in 1994. He makes one citation and when one checks the source finds that his claim is completely unfounded. The only part of Dan Gannon's claim that is true, is that the article cited used the word holocaust, which has been an english word long before WWII. The article cited does not refer to any deaths, but rather the potential for death if people were left to starve in Europe. Dan Gannon, as is typical of holocaust deniers, makes a claim that has no bearing at all when one actually checks the source. Like Dan Gannon, roadkill is aware that this claim is completely unfounded (I already shared this information with him in the last thread) and yet, chooses to continue spreading the lie.


Originally Posted by Jamie McCarthy and Ken McVay
On January 30, 1994, Dan Gannon posted an article to UseNet's newsgroup alt.revisionism that asserted that the Jews had claimed that there was a Holocaust during World War I:


THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBORS.

Mr. Gannon would do well to heed his own advice, as we will see...



Though few remember, there was supposedly a Jewish "Holocaust" during World War I, in addition to the Jewish "Holocaust" of World War II! Not only that, but the number of victims was claimed, both times, to have been SIX MILLION!!! The "evil" Germans supposedly did it TWICE! Actually, they never even did it ONCE.

The FIRST alleged "Holocaust of Six Million Jews at the hands of the Germans" has been forgotten, but the SECOND alleged "Holocaust of Six Million Jews at the hands of the Germans" is today a highly-promoted OFFICIAL TRUTH.

The reason the first "Holocaust" story was discarded is, I think, related to the saying, "If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried." They failed to convince everyone the first time, so they quit publicizing it. Then they tried the same stunt again later, after World War II, and now they've got most people believing it! But that is changing.

SIX MILLION JEWS exterminated during World War I, too?!?

In a major speech in October, 1919, in Albany, New York, Martin Glenn (a past governor of New York) reported at length to a rapt audience on "the extermination of 6 million Jews and the holocaust of European Jewry" during "the Great War" (i.e., World War I).

This now rarely-remembered claim was publicized in, among others, the October 31, 1919, issue of the American Hebrew Magazine, published by the American Jewish Committee. [1]

First of all, Martin's last name is Glynn. Let's assume that to be a typographical error or a mistranscription.

Secondly, there is no indication within the article itself that the text originated as a speech.

It is important to note that nowhere in the text is any mention made of "the extermination of 6 million Jews and the holocaust of European Jewry during the Great War".

In fact, there is no mention made of "extermination" at all.

The article is instead about the threat of starvation to about seven million people (six million Jewish adults and eight hundred thousand children). Neither is there any mention of "Germans" in the text, and it would be a far stretch to even claim that it was implied; no mention is even made of the war.

Except for the fact that the word "Holocaust" is used in the original article, Mr. Gannon has completely misrepresented the original text. (Even in this instance, the original text is at variance with Mr. Gannon's claims, as it warns about a "threatened holocaust," and does not make any reference to one actually having occurred.)

Recently, the Institute for Historical Review has also seen fit to present this article from American Hebrew Magazine.

3) Why are there no cyanide traces on the walls of the alleged homicidal gas chambers?

This is a frequently repeated point among Holocaust deniers based on The Leuchter Report. The problem with the report is that there are major falsifications. Despite it's being debunked you will still hear it from Holocaust deniers and I'm sure roadkill will continue refering to it. You can read a detailed explaination from www.hdot.org here:
http://www.hdot.org/news/mythfacts/leuchter.html

For those who are lazy the main problem is that a) samples were taken from the structural brick rather than the plaster that covered the brick 50 years ago b) tests were run in bulk instead of performing a surface analysis c) despite these errors Leuchter did in fact find traces of HCN residue which he deemed insignificant because d) his control was the delousing chamber, which the report fails to mention used more, not less HCN. It requires at least 16,600 ppm to kill the lice and only 300 ppm to kill a human. Hence his benchmark for lethality was deeply flawed.

There are further errors in the report but these are the ones that relate most directly to the question at hand (the others deal with the engineering of the chambers themselves).

4) Why would the Germans commit mass murder when they know the war is lost? They would effectively be signing their own death warrants.

Well this is not a scientific question but one of psychology. Committing mass murder is not a logical act. However, the question itself contains two lies that I would like to expose. The first is a lie of timing. The Nazis began exterminating the Jews long before they realized the war was lost. The concentration camps were operating at full efficiency as early as 1942 and the war did not turn until 1944. Second, the question ignores the documented fact (easily found in the memoirs of the SS Officers and the transcripts of the Nuremberg Trials) that the Nazis were aware that they were committing war crimes and tried to cover it up. Part of this included the destroying of some of the concentration camp infrastructure (gas chambers were blown apart with dynamite) and part was killing the witnesses as liberating armies approached. Physical evidence from the locations matches the witness testimony and the confessions of the Nazis themselves.


So to summarize the responses:
1) The Germans were constantly engineering to dispose of bodies in the most efficient way possible to lessen the need for fuel.
2) The claim of a first Holocaust by Dan Gannon is a lie. His citation is simply false.
3) The report where this claim originates is deeply flawed as described above. However, even it acknowledges trace amounts of the chemical used in the gas chambers.
4) The Nazis did not know they were going to lose when they began the Final Solution. Later, as liberating armies were approaching, the Nazis attempted to cover up their crimes.

[kingsam]

You cannot deny the Holocaust without being anti-semitic.I wouldn't say being a Holocaust denier or even sceptical of the Holocaust makes you an anti-semite, you could just be misinformed by someone who is an anti-semite.

What I've read and understood in the past points almost all signs to the fact that there was a holocaust on the jews as well as many other 'undesireables' getting a similar but less extreme treatment.
Honestly, denial of the Holocaust seems to me like a typical, lame, agenda-driven conspricy theory, but even less believable.

[momomike3]

Roadkill LOVES to stir the pot. He's been doing it on this forum for months. He knows very well that the holocaust happened, but he will go to ultra-radical websites to get "facts" that are found by "witnesses" that ramble with inconsistencies and mis-interpretations. He is an American-hater and apparently now he is an anti-Semite.

[Axe&Hammer]

1) Where did the Germans - who were strapped for supplies on all fronts, get the fuel to cremate 6,000,000 bodies?
Most bodies where buried in the snow or ground(after dying of exposer,lack of food or being shot),only camps that couldn't be razed in time to beat the advancing soviets had mass burnings of the bodies.



2) Why were there similar claims of a "holocaust of 6,000,000" after WWI, despite this being blatantly untrue?
I've never heard of these claims.

3) Why are there no cyanide traces on the walls of the alleged homicidal gas chambers?
Because for 1. carbon monoxide was often used, 2. few gas chambers remained when they did these tests 3.The tests were faulty.

4) Why would the Germans commit mass murder when they know the war is lost? They would effectively be signing their own death warrants.
Hilter didn't want the world to know what he did,and the power of hate cannot be stopped by reality.


It doesn't matter if 1 million people or 6 million people died,German police and special forces under Hitler,built and maintained camps that held mass amounts of political dissidents and many minorities that lived within Germany,and its occupied lands.These camps either for labor or extermination were cruel inhuman centers of hate,Defense,revision or denial of these acts are unacceptable on this website,go to stormfront and bask in the glory of other so called "holocaust revisionists" who just so happen to be anti-zionist,good day.:-|

[roadkill]

1. 6mil bodies were not cremated (and the more conservative figures estimate around 5.3mil - conservative meaning their based only on recorded killings, not estimates on non-recorded ones), but they died in labor camps, gas chambers, ghettos, air raids, and cremations as well.

You're missing the point. There are only two options here:

a) The bodies were cremated.

b) The bodies were buried.

Now given the fact that 6,000,000 bodies have never been found, that leaves only option a). So the question remains, where did they find the fuel to cremate these bodies.

2. Uhm... i don't know why people make claims *shrug*. If it's untrue, why bring up people's motives of over 70 years ago? How does relate to the wwii holocaust, which did happen?

If you can't see how it relates, you have no business taking part in this discussion.

3. Cyanide-based insecticides were only used in 2 camps, Auschwitz and Majdanek. Others used carbon-monoxide and some were gassed in "gas cars" in trains. I'd also like to see your sources for this claim. If you wish for people to argue reasonably, please bring the reasons behind the argument.

Where did i say otherwise? I said why are there no traces of cyanide in the "alleged homicidal gas chambers".

4. The mass murder started before "the war was lost" and it continued throughout. Toward the end, as their country was being invaded and the camps destroyed, I logically assume that the nazis began retreating and regrouping. However, taking hundreds of thousands of jews with them as they flee could be considered a slight slow-down, just a teensy obstacle. It's safe to assume that they attempted to finish the job and clear the camps (by killing the inmates) as fast as possible so that they could retreat. Seriously, you don't suppose that it would have been more efficient for them to be liable for that many jews as they escape, especially considering that most of them would have been together and surely would have realized how much they outnumber their holders.

Again, talking about retreating Nazis does nothing to explain why the German authorities would sign their own death warrants. Why didn't they wait untill they had won the war?

Speaking of retreating, when the Germans retreated from certain camps, why did the inmates leave alongside them in fear of the Russians? In fact, why were the inmates alive at all?


In point of fact the Germans were very interested in conserving fuel. So much so, that they ran experiments to discover the efficiency of incinerating bodies in various stages of starvation (ie different amounts of body fat). It was discovered that a combination of bodies with no fat remaining and bodies that still had some fat burned the most efficiently. For further evidence one need only look in the German patent office to find the patent for the incineration ovens that were used in the concentration camps. Normal crematories have only one spot for a body and one fire. Hence the need for new technology, which as I already mentioned was patented in the German patent office, where one fire feeds three chambers where bodies could be burned and the fat drip back down into the fire, feeding the flames

Using human bodies as fuel? Such nonsense. The human body is made up of 75% water. The amount of fat on an adult body would barely be enough to evaporate the water within its own corpse nevermind 5 or 6 others. You honestly believe that fat off a body will cremate the entire carcass, bone and all without external energy? The flash characteristics of petrol alone, for example would only char a human body.

An amount of coke fuel is needed to fire the oven up and then sustain it. Being conservative here, and leaving out firing up - it takes roughly 30kg of solid coke fuel to cremate an adult corpse.

At Auschwitz, it was alleged that 116,794 people were gassed and cremated between 15/03/43 and 25/10/43 (1). Given that it takes 30kg (Conservative, the required amount of an emaciated body only) of coke to cremate a single body;

30 x 116,794 = 3,503,820kg/3503.82 tons.

Then looking at the Auschwitz records for 15/03/43 to 25/10/43, 607 tons of solid coke fuel was delivered (2). That is 2896.82 tons short of what was necessary. This is also not taking into account that coke fuel isn't great because it has all of its volatile substance removed beforehand. It neither takes into account the amount of which would have been needed to fire the ovens up.

The firing up of ovens is important. The oven cannot possibly run 24/7, it has to cease cremation for reasons of general maintenence. For example, the firebrick would need attention (Which leads to another point, why are there no recorded mass imports of firebrick into Auschwitz?). Which means the ovens have to be re-fired regularly costing even more fuel.

Well, for those not paying attention I already directly answered this point on the previous thread. However, as I said before, roadkill will continue to promote these points even if I refute them. Since the benefit is for you, the reader, and not roadkill, I will repost what I already wrote on the last thread. This comes from http://www.nizkor.org/features/techn...ocaust-01.html a site dedicated to showing how Holocaust deniers manipulate citations to prove their points. The particular accusation that roadkill is repeating was originally made by Dan Gannon in 1994. He makes one citation and when one checks the source finds that his claim is completely unfounded. The only part of Dan Gannon's claim that is true, is that the article cited used the word holocaust, which has been an english word long before WWII. The article cited does not refer to any deaths, but rather the potential for death if people were left to starve in Europe. Dan Gannon, as is typical of holocaust deniers, makes a claim that has no bearing at all when one actually checks the source. Like Dan Gannon, roadkill is aware that this claim is completely unfounded (I already shared this information with him in the last thread) and yet, chooses to continue spreading the lie.

This is not a rebuttal, it merely refutes the word "extermination" and that it was carried out by Germans. The method for the death of the 6,000,000 is irrelevent, that they claimed 6,000,000 died is. Now, where is the proof that 6,000,000 jews died after WWI in Europe in a 'holocaust'? Where are the bodies for the 6,000,000 dead?

I have posted 3 different sources in the other thread where prominent jews claimed that 6,000,000 (one even claimed 7) were killed in a 'holocaust'.

Where is the evidence for this outrageous claim?


samples were taken from the structural brick rather than the plaster that covered the brick 50 years ago

Ahh, returning to the search engine for help, eh? This is irrelevent, looking at the delousing chambers, the cyanide permeated right through to the other side of the wall, through both plaster and structural brick. Had the alleged 'homocidal' chambers been used in a similar fashion, it would have been the same case.

It requires at least 16,600 ppm to kill the lice and only 300 ppm to kill a human. Hence his benchmark for lethality was deeply flawed.

Wrong. This was taken out of context, the 16,600ppm number was the amount required to effectively kill every insect in the delousing chamber. The 300ppm was the amount, or example, required to kill a single human being.

Well this is not a scientific question but one of psychology. Committing mass murder is not a logical act. However, the question itself contains two lies that I would like to expose. The first is a lie of timing. The Nazis began exterminating the Jews long before they realized the war was lost. The concentration camps were operating at full efficiency as early as 1942 and the war did not turn until 1944.

The war did not turn untill 1944?? Every serious historian, and every general in the German army, all agree that the war was lost for Germany at the battle of Stalingrad, which started in '42.

Second, the question ignores the documented fact (easily found in the memoirs of the SS Officers and the transcripts of the Nuremberg Trials) that the Nazis were aware that they were committing war crimes and tried to cover it up.

Wrong. The holocaust is notorious for its lack of documents proving homicidal gassings. So notorious, that the popular argument is that they destroyed these documents you're speaking of. By the way, just what documents are you speaking of? Because the only popular "document" is the Wansee conference document, AFAIK.

Part of this included the destroying of some of the concentration camp infrastructure (gas chambers were blown apart with dynamite) and part was killing the witnesses as liberating armies approached.

What are you talking about? Its well known that many inmates wanted to flee with the Germans when they abandoned the camps in fear of the Red Army. The Germans let them, they didn't kill them. Now you're just making any old stuff up.

Physical evidence

What physical evidence? The holocaust is infamous for heavily relying on very little physical evidence, rather eyewitness testimony.

from the locations matches the witness testimony and the confessions of the Nazis themselves.

The same 'confessing' Nazis who were beaten up, had finger nails ripped out, had their families threatened, deprived of sleep, beaten some more, forced starvation and were threatened with execution from Countries (USA/UK) notorious for savaging prisoners? How can such the testimonies of such men be taken seriously? In a real Court of law they wouldn't.

Now for some additional questions;

1) Why was Adolf Eichmann the man held allegedly responsible for orchestrating the holocaust? To put it another way, why was a Lt Colonel charged with the task of masterminding the entire holocaust? You don't find something odd about this claim?

2) Why was there a swimming pool, hospital, cinema/theatre and football pitch at Auschwitz?

3) Why use fumes from diesel engines when fumes from petrol are more lethal?

4) Why was a single autopsy never performed on a dead body to offer conclusive proof that the death was a result of poisonous gassing?

5) Why have we not yet been shown the alleged mass grave of 900,000 bodies at Treblinka?










(1) - J.C. Pressac, Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. p.224.

(2) - F. Piper - Gas Chambers and Crematoria, p.164.


Most bodies where buried in the snow or ground(after dying of exposer,lack of food or being shot),only camps that couldn't be razed in time to beat the advancing soviets had mass burnings of the bodies.

Except that you've just made this up at the drop of the hat. I haven't in years heard of "bodies being buried in the snow". Why would the Germans in '42 bury bodies under snow when 6 Months later they would reappear? Also, they didn't bury hundreds of thousands of bodies at Auschwitz for example, because it was built on marsh land and it would have polluted the water.

As for the advancing Soviets forcing them to cremate? Nonsense, the Soviets were nowhere near the camps when the alleged "death machine" went into full swing.


I've never heard of these claims.

I have posted several examples on this very forum just today.

Because for 1. carbon monoxide was often used,

I'm not talking about the carbon monoxide chamber walls, i'm talking about the cyanide chamber walls - obviously theres going to be no traces of cyanide on chambers which didn't use it. What an irrelevent point. But come to that, carbon monoxide is a terrible choice for committing mass murder for several reasons especially when the Germans had more efficient methods at their desposal.

2. few gas chambers remained when they did these tests

The most prominent gas chambers remain even today, they are even shown to visitors. Samples have been taken from them.

3.The tests were faulty.

Even before tests were taken, it was obviously something was amiss - i.e. the lack of Prussian blue colouring.

Hilter didn't want the world to know what he did,and the power of hate cannot be stopped by reality.

If Hitler didn't want the World to know what he did, then he would have waited untill he won the war. There could not possibly have been a more stupid time to do it than in a war in two fronts. Add to that, why the hell would he deliberately move the evidence closer to the Allies?

It doesn't matter if 1 million people or 6 million people died,German police and special forces under Hitler,built and maintained camps that held mass amounts of political dissidents and many minorities that lived within Germany,and its occupied lands.These camps either for labor or extermination were cruel inhuman centers of hate,Defense,revision or denial of these acts are unacceptable on this website,go to stormfront and bask in the glory of other so called "holocaust revisionists" who just so happen to be anti-zionist,good day.:-|

So you also condemn the mass starvation of German P.O.W.s after their unconditional surrender in inhumane camps? Or the racist nature of American Japanese concentration camps during the war?

[Axe&Hammer]

The war did not turn untill 1944?? Every serious historian, and every general in the German army, all agree that the war was lost for Germany at the battle of Stalingrad, which started in '42.
No German general knew that the Soviets would advance as far as they did in the time they did it.


What physical evidence? The holocaust is infamous for heavily relying on very little physical evidence, rather eyewitness testimony.And Photos,and letters, and documents from all sides


The same 'confessing' Nazis who were beaten up, had finger nails ripped out, had their families threatened, deprived of sleep, beaten some more, forced starvation and were threatened with execution from Countries (USA/UK) notorious for savaging prisoners? How can such the testimonies of such men be taken seriously? In a real Court of law they wouldn't.
Yet thousands of camp guards came forward with testimonies,as did the Jewish camp guards(Sonderkommandos)




1) Why was Adolf Eichmann the man held allegedly responsible for orchestrating the holocaust? To put it another way, why was a Lt Colonel charged with the task of masterminding the entire holocaust? You don't find something odd about this claim?Um,he was in charge of deportation,not the whole Final Solution,we was under orders from Heydrich via Himmler.

2) Why was there a swimming pool, hospital, cinema/theatre and football pitch at Auschwitz?For the guards,and soldiers stationed at the camps,and too fool allied recon planes,or the local population.

3) Why use fumes from diesel engines when fumes from petrol are more lethal?They most likely used both,but refined car fuel may have been rarer,as most military vehicles used diesel.



Except that you've just made this up at the drop of the hat. I haven't in years heard of "bodies being buried in the snow". Why would the Germans in '42 bury bodies under snow when 6 Months later they would reappear? As the guards escorted the prisoners on foot(do to the lack of intact rail lines in many areas) toward extermination camps/and or camps farther from Russian forces,many died, and were left in the snow,only to be found during the next thaw.


Also, they didn't bury hundreds of thousands of bodies at Auschwitz for example, because it was built on marsh land and it would have polluted the water.They were not buried,but rather burned,in one of the crematoriums.


As for the advancing Soviets forcing them to cremate? Nonsense, the Soviets were nowhere near the camps when the alleged "death machine" went into full swing.Burning of the bodies of the already dead,i.e exhuming corpses,and burning them,along with the camps,and killing the ones too sick or injured for forced labor,then burning them.



I'm not talking about the carbon monoxide chamber walls, i'm talking about the cyanide chamber walls - obviously theres going to be no traces of cyanide on chambers which didn't use it. What an irrelevent point.
The tests where done decades after the war ended.They were bound to get wonky results.


But come to that, carbon monoxide is a terrible choice for committing mass murder for several reasons especially when the Germans had more efficient methods at their desposal. Actually its CBE, they used to shoot them,but that wasted valuable bullets





If Hitler didn't want the World to know what he did, then he would have waited untill he won the war. because he began to hide the evidence when it became clear to him that the locations of his camps wouldn't be safe for long.

There could not possibly have been a more stupid time to do it than in a war in two fronts. Add to that, why the hell would he deliberately move the evidence closer to the Allies?The Allies(US/UK) were moving far slower than the Soviets,and the closer to Berlin the better.



So you also condemn the mass starvation of German P.O.W.s after their unconditional surrender in inhumane camps?Yes

Or the racist nature of American Japanese concentration camps during the war?Yes

America doesn't deny those acts,nor did they effect as many as the holocaust did.

[roadkill]

No German general knew that the Soviets would advance as far as they did in the time they did it.

This is not a response, the fact is when cremation allegedly began, the Nazis were on the advance and the Soviets were retreating to the East. Your claim that cremation was a direct result of a Soviet advance is nonsense.

Besides, aside from this ridiculous hair splitting pseudo-historian side-tracking bull****, the real issue isn't when or whether or not cremation occured, but the fact that the Germans hadn't the fuel to carry it out on such a large scale.


And Photos,and letters, and documents from all sides

Photos and letters do not prove the execution of genocide nor will the ever be the substitute for a single autopsy.

Um,he was in charge of deportation,not the whole Final Solution,we was under orders from Heydrich via Himmler

Adolf Eichmann, the 'central architect of the holocaust'.

http://www.hirhome.com/israel/eichmann.htm

Eichmann is often charged as the poster boy of holocaust mechanics. Even then, that a Colonel would be charged with such burdens is outrageous.

For the guards,and soldiers stationed at the camps,and too fool allied recon planes,or the local population

1) The swimming pool, theatre, cinema, football pitch and other such facilities were located nowhere near the guards quarters.

2) The Theatre, hospital, cinema, swimming pool etc are all not disernable from the air. All rooftops looked the same.

3) The local population couldn't see these facilities either way.

They most likely used both,but refined car fuel may have been rarer,as most military vehicles used diesel

1) The claim is that they used diesel fumes. I know of no mention of petrol fumes being used.

2) They also had gas producer vehicles running off wood-fuel whose fumes are more deadly/efficient than both diesel and petrol, yet they didn't use this. Diesel is just a more 'sinister' fit, which is why it is used in history books. Unfortunately its properties are unfitting for efficient genocide.

As the guards escorted the prisoners on foot(do to the lack of intact rail lines in many areas) toward extermination camps/and or camps farther from Russian forces,many died, and were left in the snow,only to be found during the next thaw.

Making up more information here. The first i have heard of mass escortations on foot where the majority died en-route. Source? So according to you, millions of bodies were left littered on road-sides?

They were not buried,but rather burned,in one of the crematoriums.

I didn't say they were buried, why don't you actually read what you're quoting? Yes, thats how the story goes, they were cremated in the ovens of Auschwitz - despite the fact that Auschwitz records show that there wasn't enough fuel to carry this allegation out.

The tests where done decades after the war ended.They were bound to get wonky results.

Cyanide traces will not shift over a relatively short period of 60 years - even in the worst weather conditions.

because he began to hide the evidence when it became clear to him that the locations of his camps wouldn't be safe for long.

What? Again you don't appear to be reading what you're quoting. That reponse has no relevance to the quote you raised.

The Allies(US/UK) were moving far slower than the Soviets,and the closer to Berlin the better.

I was talking about the Soviets, who were a member of the allies. Why move the evidence away from central Germany closer to danger?


Splitting hairs with idiots with no idea what they're talking about who like to pretend otherwise. I should be doing better things with my time.

[OKlondon]

A few things to bring up that while I think no one can really deny the Holocaust the figures of the number people vary. I think some people argue the seriousness of the Holocaust. My belief is death is bad, there is little differeness in the seriousness of the case whether its 1 million or 5 million.

The Holocaust:

Not all Jewish people were killed by gas, as some believe, majority of people died due to overwork, lack of food and disease.

Jews were the only people were attacked, disabled people, gypsies, black people, etc. I dont the figures for the ratios, etc I m not going to find them either.

The holocaust could be considered the last option for Nazis to remove Jews from society. They asked them to leave, attacked them, seperated them, runied their businesses, put them in "ghettos" and even tried to send them to Madagascar before extermination.

Hitler's ideas on anti-semitism was not original, anti-semitic behaviour has been seen through history long before Hitler.

No one knows for sure Hitler's position with the final plan.

Nazis were not the first to use death camps.

[DINAMO788]

well im posting to subscribe to this thread. i'll read it all when i have time lol.

i hope we'll get some questions posted back at roadkill. i assume all of your questions are non-ambiguous and can have "direct-answers"

[momomike3]

My best argument is why would the jews make this up? What are they gaining from us, sympathy? Fact of the matter is, the nazi government wanted to exterminate the jews so they put them in camps and killed some. Even if it was at the "low" number of a million, it is a MILLION people slaughtered for no reason. Lord only knows why you are trying to argue people on this subject. You should be ashamed of yourself roadkill.

[Axe&Hammer]

This is not a response, the fact is when cremation allegedly began, the Nazis were on the advance and the Soviets were retreating to the East. Your claim that cremation was a direct result of a Soviet advance is nonsense.
Yes,it is a response to the section of your text I quoted, furthermore the cremation of bodies after the dead were exhumed was common on the eastern camps.

but the fact that the Germans hadn't the fuel to carry it out on such a large scale.
Central Europe is know for its large forests,hmm what can one do to produce fire cheaply:rolleyes:




Photos and letters do not prove the execution of genocide nor will the ever be the substitute for a single autopsy.

Photos of the executions and their after effects, and letters that show reports of the killings,substitute an autopsy


Adolf Eichmann, the 'central architect of the holocaust'.

http://www.hirhome.com/israel/eichmann.htm

Eichmann is often charged as the poster boy of holocaust mechanics. Even then, that a Colonel would be charged with such burdens is outrageous
Wow,you're making the claim that holocaust "supporters" say he is the architect of the holocaust,when we clearly state that it was people higher up the food chain like Himmler..ooook.


1) The swimming pool, theatre, cinema, football pitch and other such facilities were located nowhere near the guards quarters.
so the guards lacked feet?


2) The Theatre, hospital, cinema, swimming pool etc are all not disernable from the air. All rooftops looked the same.
The pool was open air(doubled as a water reservoir) nor could it support the amount of people in the camp,most likely for the officers and guards.


http://www.rense.com/general24/swimpool.jpg


3) The local population couldn't see these facilities either way.
But they could here about them,or see them in propaganda films.




2) They also had gas producer vehicles running off wood-fuel whose fumes are more deadly/efficient than both diesel and petrol, yet they didn't use this. Diesel is just a more 'sinister' fit, which is why it is used in history books. Unfortunately its properties are unfitting for efficient genocide.
Thats why it dropped in favor of using the large cashes of poisons they had.And Sobilor used pertol gas chambers as Treblinka.



Making up more information here. The first i have heard of mass escortations on foot where the majority died en-route.
A majority of the people where transported via rail,but many rail lines had been destroyed,and many people where forced to walk to the camps,thus leading to death people on the roads.



Source? So according to you, millions of bodies were left littered on road-sides?
Thousands,yes, millions no.



I didn't say they were buried, why don't you actually read what you're quoting? Yes, thats how the story goes, they were cremated in the ovens of Auschwitz - despite the fact that Auschwitz records show that there wasn't enough fuel to carry this allegation out.

You said

"Also, they didn't bury hundreds of thousands of bodies at Auschwitz for example, because it was built on marsh land and it would have polluted the water."

I said

"They were not buried,but rather burned,in one of the crematoriums."


Cyanide traces will not shift over a relatively short period of 60 years - even in the worst weather conditions.
Yes in 60 years chemical traces can be degraded enough to give faulty,and unreliable results.



What? Again you don't appear to be reading what you're quoting. That reponse has no relevance to the quote you raised.

you said

"If Hitler didn't want the World to know what he did, then he would have waited untill he won the war."

I said

"he began to hide the evidence when it became clear to him that the locations of his camps wouldn't be safe for long."

He tried to destroy evidence,because we was going to loose the war,get it?


I was talking about the Soviets, who were a member of the allies. Why move the evidence away from central Germany closer to danger?
Actually they didn't move the evidence,they destroyed it on site or at least they tried,but as they retreated to safer places they left another trail of evidence.


Splitting hairs with idiots with no idea what they're talking about who like to pretend otherwise. I should be doing better things with my time.
When you hear "the majority of credible historians believe that a said event happened" your wrong,until you give evidence that completely destroys our stance,the burden of proof is on you. prove to us that the Holocaust didn't happen,go.

[DINAMO788]

seriously. if you're so sure that everyone is wrong and all of our resources are faulty, can you prove it never happened? we have more than enough envidence for it, just because you chose to not think its credible does not reduce any of the credibility. if you think it never happened because of lack of evidence as you say, you lack evidence to say ti didn't happen.

[OMGashleysimpson]

Do you live in Iran??????????

[DINAMO788]

hes from europe. maybe the UK. i'd love to say France, but i dont think so

[OMGashleysimpson]

I was kinda joking, i saw he lived in europe. But then he would see all the history there because he probley lives pretty close to one of the concentration camps.

[sonyfan6]

I'm pleased to see so many educated responses to roadkill. This is exactly why a free exchange of ideas is important. Hate speech is often, as in the case of Holocaust denial, so ridiculous a notion, that it cannot withstand the free exchange of ideas.

I'll remind people not to bother trying to convince roadkill. You will only be frustrated. Simply tailor your responses to the reader.

With that in mind, I will point out that roadkill once again uses a technique common to Holocaust deniers, the misrepresentation of information. In his response to myself and others, he ignores the actual argument put forth and attempts to change our words to meet his own goals. For example, I wrote that the Nazis were very concerned with the efficiency of destroying corpses, giving multiple examples of ways that they strived to improve that efficiency. I made a few points, first that the nazis experimented with bodies in different states of starvation to see which would burn more efficiently, second that they improved the technology throughout the war and third that the crematories were used as incinerators making them much more efficient (multiple bodies at a time and no energy loss for cool down). What roadkill chose to focus on was my point about Nazi experimentation with the burning of bodies in various degrees of starvation. Rather than quoting me directly, which would clearly show that I made the point that the Nazis found more efficient combinations, roadkill misrepresents my statement and claims that my point was that body fat was soley responsible for providing energy to the flames. No where in my post did I ever make this point. However, roadkill decided to misrepresent my post to further his own agenda. This is once again a warning to everyone that roadkill cannot be trusted.

Continuing with the point of fuel, you'll also notice that roadkill now provides the formula for the fuel required to destroy one body and multiplies it to say that there wasn't enough fuel. However, this completely ignores the point I already made, stating simply that the use of the ovens as incinerators and not crematories, with multiple bodies going in at once and no energy loss from cycling, coupled with the Nazi efficiency in discovering it was easier to burn certain combinations of starved bodies (ie. different ratios of fat) makes it a far more efficient process. Efficiency always works on an economy of scale. Just take a subject discussed on the ps3forums, the manufacture of blu-ray diodes. The components were very expensive initially, but the price, due to technological advances and economies of scale has come down tremendously. Likewise, roadkill's numbers hide the fact that it is proportionally more efficient to burn lots of bodies than it is to burn one body at a time.

Regarding roadkill's second point, he once again ignores that I have shown, to a degree that will satisfy any reasonable person, by pointing out and linking to the very citations in question, that the 'WWI holocaust' as roadkill claims was invented by Holocaust denier Dan Gannon on January 30th, 1994 who misrepresented a document from 1919 by Martin Glynn who warned of the possibility of death from starvation to Europe's Jewish population. Nowhere in the cited article does Martin Glynn ever say that there was a systematic attempt by Germans to kill 6 million Jews. However this is the basis of Dan Gannon's technique for Holocaust denial, which is being repeated by roadkill. Holocaust deniers, because they could not disprove the Holocaust, invented a 'fake holocaust' which they could disprove.

Regarding the gas chamber lies that roadkill is spreading I will once more point out that he is referring to The Leuchter Report. He never uses this name because he knows that it has been categorically disproven. I have provided links, which use excellent citations and explain exactly what is wrong with roadkill's argument against the evidence of gas chambers. Furthermore, roadkill shows a lack of knowledge of science in his response when he says that 16,600 ppm is the amount needed to kill all the insects in the room but 300 ppm is the amount needed to kill one human. ppm is a unit of measuring concentration that stands for parts per million. In other words for every million molecules of air that you breathe in, if you breath in 300 molecules of this gas, you die. As a concentration only 300 ppm are required to kill all the people exposed. Likewise, 16,600 is the number required to kill all the insects exposed. Furthermore, this science lie does not address the poor sampling techniques, control methods or analysis tests used in The Leuchter Report.

In response to my rebuttal of roadkill's 'logical argument' regarding why the Nazis would commit mass murder, he once again misrepresents WWII history by claiming that the Nazis knew in 1942 that the war had turned against them. As others have pointed out already, it is historians, in retrospect, that have given 1942 as a turning point for the war. Hitler did not believe the war was lost in 1942 and continued fighting.

Furthermore, roadkill attempts to argue against my other point, being that the mass murder was well documented with colloborating testimony and physical evidence, with outright denial. I believe the word corroborating is the key word. Corroborating testimony and physical evidence overwhelmingly backs the historical fact that just under 6 million Jews were exterminated. Roadkill's argument to throw out this evidence requires one to believe in a massive conspiracy by the Jewish people to frame Germany for a crime that never occured and that Germany accepted the blame. The common rationale for this among Holocaust deniers, as I said earlier is to claim an Elders of Zion like power of the Jews to blackmail Germany out of greed. No rational individual believes this. Of course Holocaust denial is not rational.

1) Why was Adolf Eichmann the man held allegedly responsible for orchestrating the holocaust? To put it another way, why was a Lt Colonel charged with the task of masterminding the entire holocaust? You don't find something odd about this claim?

2) Why was there a swimming pool, hospital, cinema/theatre and football pitch at Auschwitz?

3) Why use fumes from diesel engines when fumes from petrol are more lethal?

4) Why was a single autopsy never performed on a dead body to offer conclusive proof that the death was a result of poisonous gassing?

5) Why have we not yet been shown the alleged mass grave of 900,000 bodies at Treblinka?

Many people have already answered these, but I will also get to them when I am done with work. As those of you reading the other thread know, I am currently on a business trip in Germany and do not have as much access to the internet as I would at home.

[CrownOfLove]

I met a guy in the street the other day; he denied the holocaust aswell.
What was his name?............oh yeah, it was Borat.

[roadkill]

Yes,it is a response to the section of your text I quoted, furthermore the cremation of bodies after the dead were exhumed was common on the eastern camps.

Your original quote:

"only camps that couldn't be razed in time to beat the advancing soviets had mass burnings of the bodies."

Lets not stray from the fact that this was a false comment. Cremations were alleged to have taken place long before this.


Central Europe is know for its large forests,hmm what can one do to produce fire cheaply:rolleyes:

1) The majority of bodies were said to have been cremated in ovens.

2) Lets get down to this ridiculous claim of using Wood as fuel;

It takes 1,000,000 BTU's to cremate an adult body.

According to the following;

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF12/1249.html
http://mb-soft.com/juca/print/311.html

Every pound of wood can release 8600 BTUS. This is not taking into consideration the forests you are speaking of would not have seasoned wood. The Germans would not have had time to store and thaw out trees, so according the experts, every pound of wood will reasonably release 7,000 BTUS per pound.

1,000,000 divided by 7,000 = 142.85 lbs of wood per body - and i'm being conservative as i'm not taking into account extra energy required to sustain an open air fire.

Given yet another conservative estimate of merely 1.5 million bodies:

1,500,000x142.85 = 214,275,000lbs of wood. Converted to tons = 214,275,000 divided by 2,000 = 107,137.5.

This amount is clearly ridiculous. Even from a transportation standpoint, its impossible. Not to mention cutting and storing. There are no records of such a mass amount of wood being cut and transported in the Third Reich.



Photos of the executions and their after effects, and letters that show reports of the killings,substitute an autopsy

1) A photo never, ever, substitutes an autopsy.
2) Which photos of executions?
3) There are no photos of gas chambers in operation.
4) Photographs which are extremely suspicious? ...

This photo appears in 3 different variations as a forgery;

a)

http://www.vho.org/D/gzz/WalendyJ-Sterne1.jpg

- Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, 1960, p. 42.

b)/c)

http://www.vho.org/D/gzz/WalendyJ-Stern2.jpg

- published in R. Neumann, Hitler - Aufstieg und Untergang des Dritten Reichs.

The Star of David has been obviously drawn in. Why is the Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw tampering with photos?

Another:

a)

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/Image17.jpg

Original photo.

b)

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/Image18.jpg

From the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Notice the crude drawing-in of smoke coming from a fence post. Why has the Simon Wiesenthal Center been tampering with photographs?

Further still, the smoke is said to come from cremation Chimneys - according to eye witnesses. But the problem with that is, human cremation facilities do not give off smoke.

Another:

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/Image19.jpg

Retouched air-photos.

Many more, but i don't have time.



Wow,you're making the claim that holocaust "supporters" say he is the architect of the holocaust,when we clearly state that it was people higher up the food chain like Himmler..ooook.

I made a claim and back it up with a link. The CIA obviously considered him to be such, unless you're more informed than the CIA?


so the guards lacked feet?

All guards facilities were located within the guards quarters. The camp theatre (drawing from memory here) was located to the extreme east of Auschwitz I, inside the inmate area. The guards quarters were located to the extreme West, outside the inmate fencing. The swimming pool was located to the North, inside the inmate area.

The (lame) excuse that these facilities were designed for guards is yet another crock.

Or how about the camp religious facilities? Are you telling me the guards were Jewish now too? Or the currency designed especially for inmates for use in the above facilities? For the guards too?



The pool was open air(doubled as a water reservoir) nor could it support the amount of people in the camp,most likely for the officers and guards.


http://www.rense.com/general24/swimpool.jpg


Yet again the swimming pool is located nowhere near the guards quarters. I suppose the soccer pitch, located next to the womans symphony orchestra - despite the fact there were no women guards - both of which are also nowhere near the guards quarters were also for guards who would had no time to play soccer?

Further still, an offical Auschwitz inmate marriage certificate;

http://judicial-inc.biz/Auschw8.jpg

Probably getting married in the above mentioned spesically constructed inmate religious facilities. Why are people getting married in an alleged 'death-camp'?



But they could here about them,or see them in propaganda films.

Very true and possible. However, the Red Cross actually visited the camps themselves to inspect claims that it was all propaganda and to investigate the claim of genocide. They found that 52,000 had died at Auschwitz;

http://judicial-inc.biz/pics/paarrge_2.jpg

Or do you presume to tell me they were on the Nazi payroll?




Thats why it dropped in favor of using the large cashes of poisons they had.

What? 75% of gassings were said to have been carried out using the fumes from diesel.

And Sobilor used pertol gas chambers as Treblinka

No they didn't. They used diesel engines.




A majority of the people where transported via rail,but many rail lines had been destroyed,and many people where forced to walk to the camps,thus leading to death people on the roads.

...


Thousands,yes, millions no.

So first you said they were buried under snow. Then you said they were buried underground. Then you said they were left on the ground en-route. Again the first i have heard of this, and i notice you haven't provided a source for this allegation.

Lets get back to your original allegation - you said "most bodies" were buried or left above ground, with the rest being cremated. The question remains, then - where are these bodies?




You said

"Also, they didn't bury hundreds of thousands of bodies at Auschwitz for example, because it was built on marsh land and it would have polluted the water."

I said

"They were not buried,but rather burned,in one of the crematoriums."

And i have posted evidence that this was impossible given that the Auschwitz records show that there was not enough fuel to dispose of the alleged number of dead. This claim is a farce.


Yes in 60 years chemical traces can be degraded enough to give faulty,and unreliable results.

Not to chemical experts. James Roth, for example, chief chemist of Alpha Analytical Labs in Massachusetts once testified that even after 50 years, no significant change would have taken place to disrupt findings.





Actually they didn't move the evidence,they destroyed it on site or at least they tried,but as they retreated to safer places they left another trail of evidence.

Yes they did, they constructed Auschwitz outside Germany in the East.



Continuing with the point of fuel, you'll also notice that roadkill now provides the formula for the fuel required to destroy one body and multiplies it to say that there wasn't enough fuel. However, this completely ignores the point I already made, stating simply that the use of the ovens as incinerators and not crematories, with multiple bodies going in at once and no energy loss from cycling, coupled with the Nazi efficiency in discovering it was easier to burn certain combinations of starved bodies (ie. different ratios of fat) makes it a far more efficient process. Efficiency always works on an economy of scale. Just take a subject discussed on the ps3forums, the manufacture of blu-ray diodes. The components were very expensive initially, but the price, due to technological advances and economies of scale has come down tremendously. Likewise, roadkill's numbers hide the fact that it is proportionally more efficient to burn lots of bodies than it is to burn one body at a time.

Bodies cannot be incinerate other bodies into ash, bone and all. Do you realise how ridiculous this sounds? Are you contending that the fat from a single body is enough to fuel flames to incinerate several human bodies - their bones and all into ash?

Have you any idea of the temperature body fat is capable of reaching, and the temperature required to turn bone to ash?




Regarding roadkill's second point, he once again ignores that I have shown, to a degree that will satisfy any reasonable person, by pointing out and linking to the very citations in question, that the 'WWI holocaust' as roadkill claims was invented by Holocaust denier Dan Gannon on January 30th, 1994 who misrepresented a document from 1919 by Martin Glynn who warned of the possibility of death from starvation to Europe's Jewish population. Nowhere in the cited article does Martin Glynn ever say that there was a systematic attempt by Germans to kill 6 million Jews. However this is the basis of Dan Gannon's technique for Holocaust denial, which is being repeated by roadkill. Holocaust deniers, because they could not disprove the Holocaust, invented a 'fake holocaust' which they could disprove.

What is this vague waffling? Yet again, it strays off into some obscure pseudo-thesis yet conveniently does not explain the following;

- "The Crucifixion of jews must stop!": Article, The American Hebrew, 31/10/19.

- "the destruction of European Jewry during World War Two has obliterated the memory of the first holocaust of the 20th century": Yehuda Bauer, My Brother's Keeper.

- "As the armies rolled back and forth in desperate conflict over the borders of Poland, Galicia, and East Prussia, terror, desolation and death descended on the civilian population in general, but most of all upon the seven million Jews. The Christian Poles, Ruthenians and Germans suffered the inevitable hardships that attend all warfare; but the Jews, already proscribed by the Russians and Poles, met with a concentrated orgy of hatred, blood lust and vindictive opportunity that threatened to wipe them out in one vast holocaust.": Nathan Schachner, The Price of Liberty. P.60.

Now there are only two things you can do here;

a) Admit that the above is lies.
b) Provide documented evidence of 6,000,000 bodies between 1914 and 1920.


Regarding the gas chamber lies that roadkill is spreading I will once more point out that he is referring to The Leuchter Report. He never uses this name because he knows that it has been categorically disproven. I have provided links, which use excellent citations and explain exactly what is wrong with roadkill's argument against the evidence of gas chambers. Furthermore, roadkill shows a lack of knowledge of science in his response when he says that 16,600 ppm is the amount needed to kill all the insects in the room but 300 ppm is the amount needed to kill one human. ppm is a unit of measuring concentration that stands for parts per million. In other words for every million molecules of air that you breathe in, if you breath in 300 molecules of this gas, you die. As a concentration only 300 ppm are required to kill all the people exposed. Likewise, 16,600 is the number required to kill all the insects exposed. Furthermore, this science lie does not address the poor sampling techniques, control methods or analysis tests used in The Leuchter Report.

Do you realise how ridiculous this sounds? That a single louse has more capacity to withstand hydrogen cyanide than an adult human being? The amount of HCN required to kill a single louse is 0.03%, whereas a single human can withstand a 1.0% concentration for several minutes.

300ppm = 100mg. Eyewitness accounts have also claimed 5-10kg was used per gassing.


My best argument is why would the jews make this up?

And i ask you, why did they make it up in 1919?

seriously. if you're so sure that everyone is wrong and all of our resources are faulty, can you prove it never happened? we have more than enough envidence for it, just because you chose to not think its credible does not reduce any of the credibility. if you think it never happened because of lack of evidence as you say, you lack evidence to say ti didn't happen.

I have posted more than enough evidence.

[sonyfan6]

HAH,

Thanks for posting the images roadkill. Now we know where you are collecting your 'data'. www.vho.org This claims to be the world's largest source of 'revisionism' aka holocaust denial.

Essentially, what roadkill intends to do is keep copying information from that cite and putting it here. Of course, let's keep in mind that everything he has posted so far has been thoroughly debunked. That roadkill refuses to accept the debunking (see for example, his continued insistence that Jews invented a 'holocaust' in 1919, even though it was in fact Dan Gannon, a Holocaust denier in 1994, as has repeatedly been pointed out. However roadkill will continue to make this claim.

For those of you responding to roadkill, here's a great site where you can find information on the claims that he is parroting: http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi

So while that one link actually completely destroys his entire argument, let's just continue tearing it apart piece by piece.

In his latest post roadkill begins by responding to Axes&Hammer by ONCE AGAIN misrepresenting his post. Axes&Hammer did not say that the only time bodies were burned was when the liberating armies approached. All he mentioned was that mass burnings occured as the advancing armies approached. Roadkill misrepresents Axes&Hammer's post and then refutes his misrepresentation rather than engaging Axes&Hammer's actual rebuttal of roadkill.

Moving on roadkill next continues on his cremantoriums rant. Once again he attempts to cloak his lies in math. What he doesn't tell you is the same thing that the other Holocaust deniers won't tell you:


40. Many Jewish survivors of the "death camps" say they saw bodies being piled up in pits and burned. How much gasoline would have to be used to perform this?

The IHR says:

A great deal more than the Germans had access to, as there was a substantial fuel shortage at that time.

Nizkor replies:

"Access"? The Auschwitz III camp, Monowitz, was an industrial work camp where fuel was produced! The IHR even admits this in their revised answer to question 6. How much better "access" could there possibly be?

Anyway, the question is misleading: a high-energy, refined fuel like gasoline was not required. Cheap and relatively plentiful imflammables like motor oil and methanol were used instead. Höss describes the open-air burning process at Treblinka (Bezwinska and Czech, KL Auschwitz Seen By The SS, 1984, p. 133):

[After the gassing at Treblinka] the gas-chambers were opened up and the bodies taken out, undressed and burnt on a framework made of railway lines.

The fires were stoked with wood, the bodies being sprayed every now and then with petrol refuse.

He also describes the process at his own camp, Auschwitz (Kogon et al., Nazi Mass Murder, 1993, pp. 168-169):

As late as the summer of 1942, the corpses were still carried to mass graves. It was only toward the end of the summer that cremation began to be used -- first by means of a wood pyre with about two thousand corpses, and later in the ditches, with the corpses that had been buried there earlier and then been exhumed. Used motor oil was poured over them, and later methanol.

It was not a serious hardship for the Nazis to sacrifice a little used motor oil.

The IHR changed the question from the blatant invention "gasoline" in the original, to the merely-inaccurate "fuel" in the revised version. It's still misleading. The term "fuel" can refer to many things, but used motor oil is not one of them.

Next roadkill takes one of the key points of all of this, that there is an enormous amount of evidence, and attempts to put into question that evidence by taking a couple photos that he claims are fake. Well, first of all let me say that even if roadkill was able to find a couple fakes, this in no way impunges the overwhelming amount of photographic evidence, written documents, witness testimony, survivor testimony, nazi confessions, all of which corroborate each other. Roadkill, in fact, has no way to refute this so he doesn't even try. Instead he tries to shift the focus to something that he can refute, which brings us back to something that he loves talking about: the 'world war I holocaust.' I have repeatedly pointed out that this was fabricated by Holocaust deniers. In fact I have pointed out the specific person and date of the fabrication. However, roadkill will continue to bring it up, because he cannot argue against the overwhelming amount of evidence that proves the Holocaust occurred. Instead he attempts to divert attention from it. Frankly, as I stated before, I don't care if he did find a couple fakes photos, however I do not cede that these photos are in fakes. Like any other lie Holocaust deniers use regarding the Holocaust it can almost certainly be traced back to a Holocaust denier misrepresenting a document that is hard to come by, ensuring that the layman will not be able to verify. Every other argument roadkill has made so far has fit this. Therefore, I see no reason to take his word on the origin of these pictures. Of course, once again this is all irrelevant as whether these pictures are real or forgeries in no way determines whether the Holocaust did or did not occur.

Next, roadkill segways into the chain of command issue. Unfortunately for him the chain of command goes all the way up to Hitler. There is plenty of evidence to support this. The only thing missing is a typed order because the order was oral. However, despite this, communications using the Nazi code words are documented. You can see plenty of this at the following link. Furthermore, roadkill's link misrepresents the CIA (see a theme developing yet?). Check out the original CIA document to see for yourself. Of course roadkill would never link an original document since none of them actually back up his claims.


26. Is there any evidence that Hitler ordered a mass extermination of Jews?

The IHR says:

No.

Nizkor replies:

Of course there is. Himmler, Eichmann, Höss, and others have said that the orders for the genocide came directly from Hitler.


Consider that Hitler received in December 1942 a report from Himmler stating that 363,211 Jews had been murdered in August-November 1942. This was just one of many reports from the Einsatzgruppen, who had the job of exterminating the Jews and anti-Nazis behind the eastern front. A photograph and the text of the report are available.

Or consider a phone log from Hitler to Himmler, in which Hitler ordered "no liquidation" of a particular trainload of Jews, because they wanted one suspected passenger questioned. If Hitler did not know of the liquidation process, how could he have ordered it stopped in this one instance? (Ironically, David Irving used part of this phone log out of context to indicate that Hitler was trying to put a stop to the extermination program. Of course, this was before Mr. Irving changed his mind and decided that there never was any extermination program, much less that Hitler knew about it.)

From Höss' memoirs (Höss, Commandant of Auschwitz, 1959, p. 205):
In the summer of 1941, I cannot remember the exact date, I was suddenly summoned to the Reichsfuhrer-SS [Himmler], directly by his adjutant's office. Contrary to his usual custom, Himmler received me without his adjutant being present and said in effect:

"The Führer has ordered that the Jewish question be solved once and for all and that we, the SS, are to implement that order....The Jews are the sworn enemies of the German people and must be eradicated. Every Jew that we can lay our hands on is to be destroyed now during the war, without exception. If we cannot now obliterate the biological basis of Jewry, the Jews will one day destroy us." (R. Hoess. Commandant of Auschwitz. London: Phoenix Press. 2000 [1959]. Pg. 183)


Evidence presented at various war-crime trials
SS-Obersturtmbannführer Dr. Martin Sandberger, commander of EK 1a:


"I myself was present during the discussions in the palais Prinz Albrecht in Berlin and during the speech by Streckenbach when the well-known Führer order was announced."
"Streckenbach personally informed me about the Führer order, which said that, in order to secure the Eastern territory permanently, all Jews, Gypsies, and communist functionaries were to be eliminated, together with all other elements who might endanger society."

According to Sandberger, the work of an EK commander consisted of four elements:

[Establishing] a good relationship with the army as far as possible; second a strict and energetic leadership of the commandos under his command; third, as quick and thorough an execution of an order as possible, in particular concerning the Jews; and fourth, as part of this Führer order, a bitter fight against communism.

Q. What orders did [Brigadeführer Walter] Stahlecker give you before you left Riga?

A. He gave me two orders particularly, the first order was to have as good a relationship as possible with the army and, second, as i have said, according to the Führerbefehl to have Estonian Jews eliminated. (From the testimany delivered for the Einsatztruppen Case, 1947-1948, vol. 6, pp. 2143-2176, quoted in Ezergailis op. cit., pps. 204 - 205, with thanks to Eugene Holman, UseNet alt.revisionism et al, June 28, 2001, Message-ID: <280620011757058782%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>)



Captured German documents
SS-Brigadeführer Walter Stahlecker's Memorandum of August 6, 1941. This memorandum was written in response to Heinrich Lohse's "Guidelines on the treatment of Jews in Ostland" (July 27, 1941). Up until the beginning of the war against the Soviet Union, policy towards Jews in Nazi-occupied territory had primarily been to ghettoize them and exploit them for labor. Hinrich Lohse, the civilian governor of the Ostland, had recommended that the same policy be continued. In response to this SS-Brigadeführer Walter Stahlecker, head of Einsatzgruppe A, wrote:


"The projected measures concerning the settling of the Jewish problem are not in harmony with those orders concerning Jews in the Ostland given by Einsatzgruppe A of the Security Police and the SD. Nor does the project take into consideration the new possibilities of cleaning up the Jewish question in the Eastern regions.
"In the Generalgouvernement there was no serious danger to in leaving the Jews in their living quarters and work places. But in the Ostland, the resident Jews or those brought in by the Red powers became the leading supporters of the Bolshevik idea. Numerous Jews are openly communist activists. The experience so far allows us to expect that, even a long time after the military occupation of the Ost territory, disorders will arise. Sabotage and acts of terror can be expected not only from communists not caught in previous actions, but precisely from Jews who will use every possibility to create disorder. The pressing need to pacify the Ost area quickly makes it necessary to eliminate all likely sources of disorder.

"The project apparently does not foresee the resettlement of the Jews as an immediate measure provided under paragraph V, but rather sees that as a lower, later development.

"In closing, let me sum up by saying that the Jewish question shall be solved by 1) a complete and 100 percent clearing of the Jews from the Ost territory; 2) preventing the Jews from increasing their numbers; 3) using the Jews to the fullest as a work force; 4) a considerable facilitation for the later collective transport to a reservatrion outside Europe.

"This definite measure can be carried out only by the forces of the Security and the Order Police.

A post script to the letter reads:


"Consider it desirable, before issuing any basic statement, once more to discuss these questions by word of mouth, especially since it is safer that way, and since it concerns fundamental orders from higher authority to the Security Police, ones that should not be discussed in writing"

(The full text of the memorandum is given in A. Ezergailis, The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941 - 1944. Riga: The Historical Institute of Latvia. 1996. Pgs. 378 - 380. with thanks to Eugene Holman, UseNet alt.revisionism et al, June 28, 2001, Message-ID: <280620011757058782%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>))
According to Ezergailis, Stahlecker made three further rerefences to the fundamental orders - on October 15, 1941, and on January 31, 1942.

Stahlecker's Consolidated Report, October 15, 1941:


"From the very beginning it was to be expected that pogroms alone would not solve the Jewish problem in the Ostland. The goal of the cleansing operation of the Sicherheitspolizei, in accordance with the fundamental orders, was the most comprehensive elimination of the Jews possible."

The same report continues:

"It is appropriate to mention in this connection the considerable resistance by officers of the Civil Administration against the implementation of large-scale executions. This resistance was countered in all cases by pointing out that the implementation of executions was the result of a fundamental order."
Stahlecker's Consolidated Report, January 31, 1942:


"According to the orders of establishing basic principles to be followed, the systematic purge operations in the Ostland, including the elimination, as completely as possible of Jewry."
(Ezergailis, The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941 - 1944. Riga: The Historical Institute of Latvia. 1996. pg. 232. with thanks to Eugene Holman, UseNet alt.revisionism et al, June 28, 2001, Message-ID: <280620011757058782%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>)


Eichmann's final speech to the court, after being sentenced to death, included the following statement:
These mass murders are solely the result of the Führer's policy.

This is as quoted by the revisionist Paul Rassinier, The Real Eichmann Trial, 1979, p. 152.


Felix Kersten was Himmler's personal manual therapist. As he wrote in his memoirs (Kersten, The Kersten Memoirs, 1956, p. 162-3):
Today I had a very long talk about the Jews with Himmler. I said that the world would no longer tolerate the extermination of the Jews; it was high time that he put a stop to it. Himmler said that it was beyond his power; he was not the Führer and Adolf Hitler had expressly ordered it. I asked him whether he was aware that history would one day point to him as one of the greatest murderers on record, because of the way in which he had exterminated the Jews. He should think of his reputation, not sully it with that reproach. Himmler replied that he had done nothing wrong and only carried out Adolf Hitler's orders.

... I told Himmler that he still had a chance to stand well with history by showing humanity to the Jews and other victims of the concentration camp -- if he really disagreed with Hitler's orders to exterminate them. He could simply forget certain of the Führer's orders and not carry them out.

"Perhaps you're right, Herr Kersten," Himmler responded, but he also added that the Führer would never forgive him and would immediately have him hanged.

Hitler met with the Mufti, Haj Amin Husseini, on 28 November 1941. Notes of the meeting were taken by Dr. Paul Otto Schmidt (see Fleming, Hitler and the Final Solution, 1984, pp. 101-104). At this meeting, Hitler promised the Mufti that, after a certain objective was reached, "Germany's only remaining objective in the region would be limited to the annihilation of the Jews living under British protection in Arab lands."


Furthermore, don't discount Hitler's own public speeches, cited in the reply to question 1. He stated his intentions to exterminate the Jews no fewer than three times, in public.
"No evidence," indeed.

In the original version of the 66 Q&A, this question was the same as question 53, with different wording:

"Is there any evidence that Hitler knew of a mass extermination of Jews?" (question 26, original);

"What evidence is there that Hitler knew of the ongoing Jewish extermination?" (question 53, original and revised).

That gives an idea of how much careful thought was put into this pamphlet.

Recommended reading: Fleming's Hitler and the Final Solution


Also, since this is probably the most important point, that Hitler was responsible, here's a second site that you can check out: http://www.hdot.org/headie.html

Of course, since roadkill seems to believe that one fake picture (ignoring that I don't trust roadkill's word on this) disproves the holocaust then the converse must be true: that one real picture proves it. So to keep roadkill busy for a while here's a bunch of pictures that he can attempt to 'prove' are fakes: http://www.geocities.com/HolocaustArchive/pictures/

To go along with it here are some quotes from Nazis (cited of course) that he can try to prove are fake as well: http://www.geocities.com/HolocaustArchive/Testmony.html

Oh, and since roadkill has made a habit of misrepresenting people's posts let me assure everyone that I don't believe that one fake picture disproves the Holocaust or that one real picture proves it. This is, of course, sarcasm on my part. The truth of the matter is that roadkill must prove that all the evidence should be thrown out, not just a couple pieces that he selects. Shouldn't the opposition, that is, those saying the Holocaust occurred, get to select their choice of proof and then the deniers can try to disprove that. Instead roadkill chooses select topics that he thinks he can make some headway in without ever addressing the real point, that 6 million Jews were murdered in a plot by the highest reaches of Nazi government.

Following his photograph forgeries, roadkill launches back into his 'concentration camps were happy places' tirade. First off the cite where he got his information from is this: http://judicial-inc.biz/Auschwitz.htm Not a particularly good source for information. In fact the entire thing is fabricated except for the Red Cross, which did visit the concentration camp, however, unlike what roadkill would have you believe, they were never allowed into the extermination part of the concentration camp, only what Hans Münch refered to as the 'show blocks' It is from these 'show blocks' that roadkill and the people roadkill is repeating attempt to verify their lies about the function of concentration camps

51. What did the International Red Cross have to report with regard to the "Holocaust" question?

The IHR says:

A report on the visit of an IRC delegate to Auschwitz in September, 1944 pointed out that internees were permitted to receive packages and that rumors of gas chambers could not be verified.

Nizkor replies:

Rumors of gas chambers could not be verified because the delegates were expressly forbidden from visiting the Auschwitz Krema, where the gas chambers and cremation facilities were. They were taken only to those parts of the huge complex which housed prisoners who were not to be exterminated. Some Allied POWs were held in Auschwitz, in reasonable conditions, but they knew about the gassings and mentioned them to the IRC delegate.

For example, former SS-Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Hans Münch confirmed this in his testimony at the International Nuremberg Trial (Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1948, Vol. VIII, p. 313-321). He said:

I repeatedly witnessed guided tours of civilians and also of commissions of the Red Cross and other parties within the camp, and I was able to ascertain that the camp leadership arranged it masterfully to conduct these guided tours in such a way that the people being guided around did not see anything about inhuman treatment. The main camp was shown only and in this main camp there were so-called show blocks, particularly block 13, that were especially prepared for such guided tours and that were equipped like a normal soldier's barracks with beds that had sheets on them, and well-functioning washrooms.

Ironically, this policy of not showing extermination-related facilities is also confirmed by the IHR itself, though unwittingly. In the "Lüftl Report," supposed expert Walter Lüftl mentions a memo to the commandants of the concentration camps. According to Lüftl, it reads:

The bordello and the crematories are not to be shown during camp visits. These installations are not to be mentioned to persons visiting the camp...

Lüftl goes on to comment:

Apparently, then, everything else could be shown and mentioned to visitors. Logically, then, a gas chamber, if one existed, could be shown and talked about; otherwise, it would have been included in the prohibition.

Since we cannot assume that the SS ever showed a [homicidal] gas chamber to the inspectors of the International Red Cross, it is permissible to conclude that none existed.

Lüftl, who is supposedly an expert, is not even aware that the term "crematories" refers to the cremation complexes, which also housed not only the ovens but also the gas chambers.

Unwittingly, he has presented evidence against his own case -- for why would it be necessary to hide the cremation complexes from the Red Cross unless something were happening there that the Red Cross should not see?

The "Lüftl Report," is available on-line in a textfile on Nizkor, or as a web page at the IHR's web site. Search on the text "Red Cross".

Now, roadkill goes back to his denial of gas chambers. He now claims, without any attempt at evidence that 75% of gassings were done with diesel. He is of course wrong. The method of killing depended on the camp:

33. What was the exact procedure the Nazis allegedly used to exterminate Jews?
The IHR says:

The stories range from dropping the gas canisters into a crowded room from a hole in the ceiling, to piping it through shower heads, to "steam chambers," to "electrocution machinery." "Millions" of Jews are alleged to have been killed in this manner.

Nizkor replies:

The exact method depended on the camp. Different means of killing -- sometimes only slightly different -- were used in different camps, and even in different places in the same camp.

At Auschwitz, specifically at Krema I through III, the Zyklon-B was dropped through holes in the ceiling. The holes are visible in aerial photographs that happened to be taken by Allied reconnaissance planes. At the Action Reinhard camps, exhaust from powerful engines, often engines stripped from captured Russian tanks, was pumped into buildings.

There were indeed showerheads in several gas chambers; witnesses have testified to this and wartime Nazi documents like inventories confirm it. (See a photograph of the document, or Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation, 1989, pp. 231, 438.) It is believed, however, that in every case, the showerheads were only cosmetic, were not connected to anything, and that no poison gas was pumped through them. They were intended to reassure the victims that everything was normal, to help prevent panic as they crowded into the chamber, and Nazis testified to this after the war.

Approximately three million Jews were gassed to death, over about three years, at the six major death camps. The rest were killed by numerous mass executions, mainly in the occupied eastern territories, and in the numerous smaller camps and ghettoes by inhuman treatment like starvation and slave-labor.

Regarding "steam chambers" and "electrocution machinery" -- these were testimonies given by confused eyewitnesses, in some cases Poles who were spying on the camps from the outside. For example, someone seeing the killing process at the Action Reinhard camps might see the suffocating engine exhaust smoke billowing out of the gas chambers, and mistake it for steam. Of the Nazis themselves, or anyone else who saw the entire killing process from a close vantage point, we know of no one who repeats these false stories.

Such stories had no evidence or corroborating testimony to back them up, and so were not even entered as charges at the war-crimes trials. In other words, those false stories are not evidence that the Nazis were falsely charged -- rather, they are evidence that the trials were fair, and that the system worked.

Next roadkill misrepresents Axes&Hammer's point again, without ever addressing the original. It's very convenient that Holocaust deniers can make up their own opposition. I guess it's kind of like a handicap in golf. Since they can't disprove the Holocaust, they make up their own support for the Holocaust that is easier to disprove.

Roadkill then goes back to his claim that there wasn't enough fuel. I've already posted the rebuttal for that in this post so I won't do so again here. Just go up to the top of the post. Since he specifically brought up diesal I'll link this: http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/diesel-01.html which not only shows where the diesal denial originated but what's wrong with it.

Roadkill then repeats his denial of gas based on 'science.' He continues to ignore that the report he is basing this on has been thoroughly debunked. All records indicate that the walls were coated with plaster materials, which would have contained a far greater concentration of residue than the brick beneath. The brick was tested, not the plaster. Further, the brick was tested in bulk, not at the surface. Further, the control was taken from an area where even more of the gas was used. The control should have been taken from an area where no gas was used, not more. Finally, even in spite of all this, the report still found traces of the gas, but decided it was insignificant. Roadkill has no rebuttal to any of these points so he chooses to ignore them and just repeat his initial claim.

Next roadkill makes some strange comment about Auschwitz, which has nothing to do with Axes&Hammer's point: that the Nazis tried to cover up their crimes.

**************

Now we finally get to the portion where he bothers to address a couple of the points I made, although he doesn't bother addressing all of them.

Instead he once again misrepresents my post, in the same manner that he did before. Namely, he says that my comment regarding Nazi experimentation into body burning efficiency means that I think the ovens were fueled only with body fat. Nowhere did I make this claim. In fact, roadkill does not even bother to address a single point that I made, instead prefering to replace my argument with his own and rebutt that.

Next, roadkill once again brings up his idiotic 'WWI holocaust' argument. This is, of course, another attempt by roadkill (and Holocaust deniers in general) to substitute their own, easily defeated arguments for the actual Holocaust evidence. He says that my pointing out that this was invented in 1994 by Holocaust denier Dan Gannon is irrelevant. Dan Gannon falsely claims that Jews claimed a WWI holocaust at the hands of the Germans and then covered it up. Of course in the 'evidence' that Dan Gannon uses none of this information actually appears. Any reasonable person would concede this and move on, and yet, roadkill wants me to either admit that the Jews invented a WWI holocaust or prove that it one occurred. Both of these options are ridiculous as I've already given the correct response, which is that Dan Gannon invented it in 1994 so he could then disprove it and claim that the Holocaust did not occur either. This is of course a substitute since Dan Gannon, and other Holocaust deniers cannot disprove the Holocaust. This is not vague waffling on my part as roadkill calls it. This is roadkill being caught red handed and trying to pull a fast one.

Next, roadkill addresses my rebuttal to his gas chamber denial. Note that he does not bother to address my points regarding the report. Instead he argues that an insect shouldn't be able to withstand more gas than a human being. Sadly, he's wrong. He will not, of course, tell you where he gets the numbers that he uses from because, like all Holocaust deniers, he needs to hide his sources. I was upfront about where my numbers came from because I have nothing to hide.

Roadkill then moves onto momomike who made the very valid point: why would the Jews make this up? Holocaust deniers, like roadkill, hate answering this question because doing so lets everyone know just how prejudice they are. Predictably roadkill avoids the question and once again claims the Holocaust denier Dan Gannon's fabricated 'WWI holocaust' was created by the Jews in 1919. Even though I've linked the original document that Dan Gannon cited and it clearly makes no such claims.

Finally, roadkill ends with the statement that he's posted more than enough evidence. This is of course completely wrong.

In order to disprove the Holocaust, the burden is on roadkill to prove that approximately 6 million Jews (5.7 by historian consensus) were not killed in an massive planned genoicide orchestrated at the highest levels of the Nazi government. He has not done this at all. Instead he made four questions doubting specific aspects <1. There wasn't enough fuel, even though there was. 2. The Holocaust denier Dan Gannon made up a WWI holocaust so he could tell people the Holocaust didn't happen. 3. The Leuchter Report on the presence of gas residue which has been thoroughly debunked. 4. Questioning why the Nazis would even commit genocide (which roadkill called mass murder) in the first place. This is of course hardly evidence that it didn't occur.>, all of which were rebutted successfully. Roadkill did not even attempt to argue against the rebuttals, instead he misrepresented the rebuttals so he could, in essense, talk to himself, making it far easier for him to 'win' the point. Next he began to deny the purpose of the concentration camps by trying to claim that they were happy places full of great amenities. Of course the only truth behind this is the show blocks used to trick visitors, which former SS-Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Hans Münch confirmed in his testimony at the International Nuremberg Trial. Having been destroyed in all these points roadkill attempts to convince people that all the evidence of the Holocaust is fakes by posting a few, photos that he claims were altered. First off this in no way makes the overwhelming corroborated evidence untrue. Secondly, I am unwilling to take roadkills word that these photos were faked by Jews to prove the existence of the Holocaust. Every other citation that roadkill has used has been a lie itself or misrepresented and there is no doubt in my mind that these photos are the same. He then continues on about concentration camps being happy places and cites the red cross, which of course, was only given the guided tour through the show blocks and never allowed to, in the Nazi's own words: see anything about inhuman treatment. Finally, to wrap it all up, roadkill pretends to argue against people's rebuttals but does not respond to even a single point made. Instead he again decides to misrepresent people's posts and transform them into stupid points that he can easily refute, essentially talking to himself instead of refutting the evidence that the Holocaust occurred. So in conclusion, his final statement about providing more than enough evidence to support his denial is wrong. He has yet to provide even a single piece of evidence that remotely refutes that 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis as part of a planned extermination. All roadkill has done is deny the evidence and arguments put forth by others while arguing against his own, misrepresented, claims.

edit:

For those interested in reading more I've just found another excellent site that is very rigirous in its citations. Furthermore, it gives one more key rebuttal to roadkill's not enough fuel argument, specifically the site documents where that claim came from, including the documents for fuel deliveries that were added together to come up with the number. Reading this link will show you why that number is not only misleading but outright wrong. http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/

As an added bonus this cite also shows, in extensive detail, the analysis of photos of the concentration camps. This actually directly disproves roadkills cry that the photos of the concentration camps are fake. http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/deathcampinternet/ So, just as I suspected, roadkill was 'full of it' when he posted that the photos of the concentration camp crematorium were fake.

Please everyone put spoiler tags around images as they are slowing the page. I will ask mods to enforce this.

[roadkill]

First of all, you repeatedly avoid debating with me on a quote - by -quote basis in order to escape difficult arguments. I'm getting tired of your long-winded vague dribble.

HAH,

Thanks for posting the images roadkill. www.vho.org This claims to be the world's largest source of 'revisionism' aka holocaust denial.

Image 1 originated in the "- Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, 1960, p. 42. - where it was clearly tampered with. How does the fact that VHO is hosting it explain why it was tampered with?

Your right clicking the image and looking at the URL is not an explanation for that crudely drawn star of David. I'm still awaiting the explanation as to why the IOW felt the need to draw this in.

Now we know where you are collecting your 'data'.

From VHO? I have the photographs here in several different books, taking them from VHO is easier than scanning them. I'm not going to waste my time doing that for someone like you.

I have 27 books - from both pro and anti on the holocaust. I have read all of them at least once. I was taught in school on 3 different educational levels on the holocaust, starting in ... oh i would say '97, and ending in 2003.

Sorry my friend, but my knowledge on this subject hasn't came from a single site over the past few days that i have found and searched like you (i.e. Nizkor).

For those of you responding to roadkill, here's a great site where you can find information on the claims that he is parroting: http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi

So while that one link actually completely destroys his entire argument, let's just continue tearing it apart piece by piece.

Translated:

"I can't counter his arguments, but hey! Here's an anti-revisionist site which is bound to have some decent responses to his arguments in there somewhere."

Thats it? A single link? As you may have noticed, my posts are quite long and thorough - i'm quickly becoming tired of wasting my time on you. Your scope of the ins and outs of the holocaust is obviously layman at best.

What next, post google.com and assure people that there counter-arguments to roadkills points in there, somewhere?

http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi

Nizkor replies:

I'm replying to Nizkor here, since Sonyfan is incapable of doing anything but copying and pasting URLs and paragraphs from their site;

I have already posted the fuel records arriving at Birkenau, from Monowitz, and they still do not match the alleged number of dead. I have also posted the number of dead and cremated. Furthermore, i have given the source for the numbers.

Additionally, both sources come from books written by F. Piper and J.C. Pressac, who are the complete opposite of revisionists and would never even look at VHO. So, the coke fuel yarn has already been debunked here. By the way, Coke fuel is merely coal with its volatile substance removed.

Next theres the methanol argument from Nizkor (Again, not Sonyfan). Methanol cannot used in a crematorium because;

a) Its too explosive.
b) There was no forced-spray hardware installed in the Birkenau and A1 crematorium for such a substance.

It also would have been more or less ineffective in an open air pire, because it would have evaporated too quickly. Methanol is also a derivative of wood, why make synthetic methanol for a wood-burning fire?



Essentially, what roadkill intends to do is keep copying information from that cite and putting it here.

This is becoming boring - and the reason it is becoming boring is because i have used many sources - from all sides - and you have flat out ignored them because you didn't know what to say, here are two examples from earlier in the thread;

" (1) - J.C. Pressac, Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. p.224.

(2) - F. Piper - Gas Chambers and Crematoria, p.164."

Of course, let's keep in mind that everything he has posted so far has been thoroughly debunked.

Not by you, you have merely typed keywords from my arguments into the Nizkor search engine and posted something that may look good in response. The main comebacks in this thread have been from A&H, who used his own creativity and apparent personal knowledge.

No coincedence that i'm still awaiting a response to point that used those sources. That roadkill refuses to accept the debunking (see for example, his continued insistence that Jews invented a 'holocaust' in 1919, even though it was in fact Dan Gannon, a Holocaust denier in 1994, as has repeatedly been pointed out. However roadkill will continue to make this claim.

I have refuted this here:

"This is not a rebuttal, it merely refutes the word "extermination" and that it was carried out by Germans. The method for the death of the 6,000,000 is irrelevent, that they claimed 6,000,000 died is. Now, where is the proof that 6,000,000 jews died after WWI in Europe in a 'holocaust'? Where are the bodies for the 6,000,000 dead?

I have posted 3 different sources in the other thread where prominent jews claimed that 6,000,000 (one even claimed 7) were killed in a 'holocaust'.

Where is the evidence for this outrageous claim?"

And again you ignored it. This Gannon character had no idea what he was talking about, and Nizkor exploited it.

Now, roadkill goes back to his denial of gas chambers. He now claims, without any attempt at evidence that 75% of gassings were done with diesel. He is of course wrong. The method of killing depended on the camp:

Lol, of course the method of killing depended on the camp. Where did i say otherwise? The only camp to use cyanide was Auschwitz, the rest used diesel. Considering 1.5 million were allegedly gassed at Auschwitz - that means 4.5 million were gassed elsewhere, ergo-using diesel fumes.

4.5 Million of 6,000,000 is 75%.

This isn't even revisionism, pro-holocaust scholars agree with this. You're so totally in over your head now, you don't even know whats pro and against.

Here's another quote from your post;

Next, roadkill once again brings up his idiotic 'WWI holocaust' argument

Why are you saying "next", you already attempted to refute that - i.e. you're dribbling on repeating the same **** in the same post. You need to trim your posts down and settle-in and engage on a quote by quote basis. Theres a sticky guide in this forum on how to avoid ******ing a debate.

Posting 500 word essays written by someone else in response to an intricate argument is a waste of my time. Maybe you should leave the difficult stuff to Axe&Hammer.

[CrownOfLove]

Roadkill, do you actually believe that the holocaust didn't happen? or are you just making a philosophical point.

[sonyfan6]

Roadkill, do you actually believe that the holocaust didn't happen? or are you just making a philosophical point.

He is not making a philosphical point. He may believe it happened though, as many Holocaust deniers actually know it happened. People like David Irving, who create the denials that others fall for, actually look at the documentation and intentionally misrepresented it to create the denial technique. I cannot tell you whether or not roadkill believes in the Holocaust, what I can tell you is that his intent is malicious. He was exposed on the previous thread after denying modern attacks on Jews. He refused to cite his sources then (because he had none) and wanted us to take his word for it. Personally, I don't think taking the word of a Holocaust denier, without any corroborating evidence, on a matter of violence against Jews, is particularly credible.

Addressing roadkills latest post:

First he accuses me of not going point by point, which in fact I have done in every post. I have not missed an opportunity to reveal a single one of his denials for what they are.

Next he goes back to the pictures which he claims are tampered. He ignores my two points.

1) Every other citation he has used has been falsified so while I don't have the Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, 1960, p. 42 on hand to review for myself, I do not trust roadkill and neither should anyone reading this based on the fast ones he's pulled so far. Every Holocaust denial argument (that is not completely fabricated) is based on misrepresenting legitimate sources. While I have several theories for this particular misrepresentation floating through my head, but I'm not going to bother posting them. The point is that this is the first document that roadkill managed to put forth that I haven't gotten my hands on. I have gotten my hands on every other one and shown how they misrepresent the original document.

2) Roadkill is attempting the 'magicians hand' here. That is to say that he is trying to distract people from the truth that he cannot dispute the facts of the Holocaust so instead he is attempting to find loosely related material, which he will have an easier time convincing people is false. This and similar manufactured arguments which roadkill is presenting are designed to do just that. In fact, even if one is to believe that this claim by roadkill is true, the question remains, how does one picture of three men standing there disprove the Holocaust? It doesn't, unless it is used as the basis to form a conspiracy theory that all the evidence is faked. This is of course a ludicrous extrapolation. If all the evidence was fake, then roadkill would be demonstrating why the evidence of 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis was fake and not a photograph published in a 1960 publication. In fact, roadkill did exactly this. He took a photograph that he felt he could convince people was fake and then put an aerially photograph of a concentration camp (to which I linked an extensive article explaining in detail how those photos are real) and claimed it to be false. Note that he has not bothered to respond to my reveal that the aerial photo of the concentration camp was not a fake.

Note that roadkill mentions that he sees the same photograph repeated in many of his books. This is because the Holocaust deniers feed off each other. They reference each other, to obfuscate the original sources, which, as previously shown, are misrepresented. Furthermore, it is amazing that with all the effort by Holocaust deniers out there that the same 'faked' (as roadkill suggests) photo would appear in all of them. One would think that these Holocaust deniers, if their conspiracy theory of every piece of evidence being falsified were true, would be able to show different examples.

Next roadkill brings up his creditials of reading many books on the subject and studying at three levels of education. Checking his profile we see he is currently 22 in 2007->18 in 2003->12 in 1997. So roadkill in fact studied the Holocaust from the age of 12-18 and this supposedly makes him an expert? This is not to say that roadkill should not be allowed to talk about the Holocaust (quite the opposite I've specifically supported his right to express his thoughts on the subject). However, it does show a strong disagreement with his claim about studying the Holocaust at three levels of education, which, while it may be literally true, the common vernacular is used to describe one who has studied an event in college, written their senior thesis on the subject and then went to to write their master's thesis and doctorial dissertation on the subject as well. Studying a subject for three levels of education does not mean doing some side reading of (obviously primarily Holocaust denial) works in the subject while completing general schooling.

This of course wouldn't be worth mentioning except that he uses it to attack my sources. His claim is that since his information came from his head and he doesn't cite it, that it is somehow better than my properly cited information. I intentionally use web references because it makes it easy for people to see the information for themselves so they can see that I am not misrepresenting it. For example, in reference to roadkill's repeated WWI holocaust nonsense, which he is still insisting on, Nizkor not only debunks it, but links the original document so people can see for themselves how badly Dan Gannon misrepresented it. This is very important for people to see as most people do not have access to the rate documents and manuscripts that Holocaust deniers falsely base their claims on. I would further mention that roadkill is not making original arguments (hence the ease at which I find equally unoriginal rebuttals). The main difference between us in this case is that roadkill hides where his arguments come from. For example, he hides that his fuel argument comes from Mattogno and his chemical trace argument from The Leuchter Report. In fact, I have pointed out more of roadkills sources than roadkill has. There is a very good reason for this. Roadkill's information is fabricated. Providing information on the sources immediately reveals that so he hides them.

Next roadkill claim that I provided a single link and didn't bother countering his arguments individually. This is of course utter nonsense as anyone can look up a couple posts and see with absolute certainty that I did counter each of his denials individually. I also provided a site for interested parties to do further reading. I hope if you the reader are curious, you will head over there and take a look. This offer of additional information in no way cedes to roadkill any points that he has made on this thread, as should be obvious from the long reply that preceded this that countered his denials directly. Incidentally, I would characterize roadkill's posts as long, but would not call them thorough. In fact the word superficial comes to mind.

Roadkill next brings up his falsified data on fuel records. This is falsified by omission as the article I linked clearly showed. However, since roadkill is continuing to repeat this claim, I will provide the text of the article here. It clearly refutes this Holocaust denial strategy. The 'evidence' that roadkill has been using are clear falsifications, created by manipulating data from legitimate sources. Since the article is long I will use the spoiler tags. The important thing to note here, is that this completely reveals that roadkill's denial of the incineration of bodies is completely fabricated.

Fuel Consumption
As was noted earlier, the furnaces at Auschwitz were coke fueled. Mattogno claimed that there were not enough coke deliveries to Auschwitz to cremate the number of bodies of non-registered prisoners who were murdered in Auschwitz from April to October 1943, the time when the four new crematoria were operating. Prior to mid-March 1943 only Krema I in the main camp was operational. There are only records of coke deliveries for the period from February 16, 1942 through October 1943. From April 1943 to October 1943 there were 497 tons of coke delivered. [140] The information on coke deliveries was compiled by denier critic and French researcher Jean Claude Pressac, who gathered the information from the records of the period held in the Auschwitz State Museum. He examined the records of 240 coke deliveries and then compiled these amounts into monthly figures for the period in which records exist. It should be noted that it is not known whether these records are complete for this period of time.

Considering the fact that there are no records for the periods before mid-February 1942 and after October 1943, and that ovens were known to have operated during this period, it is quite possible that the records under discussion are incomplete. Such incompleteness can be inferred by comparing coke deliveries for which there are monthly records with the number of deaths of registered prisoners. In July 1942 there are records for 16.5 tons of coke delivered. In that month there were 4124 deaths of registered prisoners. However, for March 1942 there are records for 39 tons of coke delivery but only 2397 registered prisoner deaths. [141] In September 1942 there were about 9000 deaths of registered prisoners and 52 tons of recorded coke delivery. In the following month there were about 5900 deaths of registered prisoners and only 15 tons of recorded coke deliveries. The second-highest month of coke deliveries was in May 1943 when 95 tons were delivered. However, the deaths of registered prisoners were very low in that month. The exact number cannot be isolated because the death books run from April 14 to June 4 and show 2967 deaths. Thus, it is safe to assume that there were about 2000 deaths of registered prisoners. Therefore, the month of the second-highest recorded coke delivery also corresponds with the month of either the lowest or one of the lowest monthly death totals of registered prisoners. [142]

The issue as to how much coke was actually delivered to Auschwitz would be resolved if there were some central numbers issued by the Bauleitung for the years at issue. Holocaust denier David Irving published in 1993 what he purported to be such numbers for the years 1940 through 1944. These figures had allegedly been found in the Auschwitz Archives in Moscow. [143] However, no file number is cited for these figures. Three attempts by the author to have Mr. Irving identify the source of these numbers have not been successful. Mattogno writes that he was unable to find any support for Irving's numbers in the Auschwitz Archives in Moscow. [144]

Mattogno examined the record of cremated prisoners at Gusen for the period from October 31 through November 12, 1941. These numbers are a contemporaneous account that were kept by prisoners on the cremation detail. Photocopies were sent to the author by the Mauthausen Memorial Museum. [145] Mattogno stated that the numbers show that over a 13 day period from October 31 to November 12, 677 bodies were cremated using 20,700 kilograms of coke, or 30.5 kilograms per body. One kilogram equals 2.2 pounds. Mattogno argued that the 497 tons of coke delivered to Auschwitz from April to October 1943 were not enough to cremate the number of registered and non-registered prisoners who were killed. One thousand kilograms equals one metric ton. He examined Danuta Czech's Auschwitz Chronicle which shows that about 103,000 unregistered prisoners disappeared after arriving at Auschwitz during this period of time. He added this number to 21,580 registered prisoners who died in the camp. He stated that there was not enough coke to cremate the corpses. In order to cremate this many corpses with the available coke, it would mean that each corpse was cremated using 4.1 kilograms of coke. [146] Therefore, he argued that 103,000 non-registered prisoners could not have been killed in the camp during this period of time. When he divided the 21,500 registered priso