France, new haven for islamic persecution of jews

[DINAMO788]

well my other thread was deleted and i was too lazy to remake it but i found another story. yes its again another case but they are becomming far too common in France nowadays.

here is yet another example: A 22-year-old Jewish woman suffered a vicious anti-Semitic attack by two men of Middle Eastern appearance in a train station in Marseille, France on Thursday night.

The attackers tore the Star of David chain from around the young woman’s neck, lifted up her shirt, painted a swastika on her stomach and then fled the scene.

Local police opened an investigation into the attack but had not yet found the assailants.

and im almost 100% sure they will not find the people..as if they care and these attakcs will not diminish.

here is the other article that got my old thread deleted. its simply enrages me how anti-semitism can loom so freely in a western state and yet still be skepticized and ignored.

"Once again, the real news in France is conveniently not being
reported as it should. To give you an idea of what's going on in
France where there are now between 5 and 6 million Muslims and
about 600,000 Jews, here is an email that came from a Jew living in
France. Please read!"

"Will the world say nothing - again - as it did in Hitler's time?
He writes, "I AM A JEW -- therefore I am forwarding this to
everyone on all my e-mail lists. I will not sit back and do nothing."

Nowhere have the flames of anti-Semitism burned more furiously than
in France: In Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set on
fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center was firebombed;
so were synagogues in Strasbourg and Marseilles; so was a Jewish
school in Creteil - all recently . A Jewish sports club in Toulouse
wa s attacked with Molotov cocktails, and on the statue of Alfred
Dreyfus in Paris, the words "Dirty Jew" were painted. In Bondy, 15
men beat up members of a Jewish football team with sticks and metal
bars The bus that takes Jewish children to school in Aubervilliers
has been attacked three times in the last 14 months.

"According to the Police, metropolitan Paris has seen 10 to 12 anti-
Jewish incidents PER DAY in the past 30 days. Walls in Jewish
neighborhoods have been defaced with slogans proclaiming "Jews to
the gas chambers" and "Death to the Jews." A gunman opened fire on
a kosher butcher's shop (and, of course, the butcher) in Toulouse,
France; a Jewish couple in their 20s were beaten up by five men in
Villeurbanne, France . The woman was pregnant; a Jewish school was
broken into and vandalized in Sarcelles, France. This was just in
the past week.

"So I call on you, wheth er you are a fellow Jew, a friend, or
merely a person with the capacity and desire to distinguish decency
from depravity, to do, at least, these three simple things:

"First, care enough to stay informed. Don't ever let yourself
become deluded into thinking that this is not your fight. I remind
you of what Pastor Neimoller said in World War II: "First they came
for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a
Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I
didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for
me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me".

Second, boycott France and French products. Only the Arab
countries are more toxically anti-Semitic and, unlike them, France
exports more than just oil and hatred. So boycott their wines and
their perfume s. Boycott their clothes and their foodstuffs.
Boycott their movies. Definitely boycott their shores.

If we are resolved we can exert amazing pressure and, whatever else
we may know about the French, we most certainly know that they are
like a cobweb in a hurricane in the face of well-directed pressure.

Third, send this along to your family, your friends, and your co-
workers. Think of all of the people of good conscience that you
know and let them know that you and the people that you care about
need their help.

The number one best selling book in France is...."September 11: The
Frightening Fraud," which argues that no plane ever hit the Pentagon.


Edward B. Roberts
David Sarnoff Professor of Management of Technology
Founder/Chair, MIT Entrepreneurship Center
Chair, MIT Sloan Entrepreneurship & Innovation MBA
Program

MIT Sloan School of Management
50 Memorial Drive, E52-535
Cambridge MA 02142
Telephone 617-253-4934
Fax 617-253-2660


Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.

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Reply to Your Post

[Axe&Hammer]

Bound to happen,their are messed up people everywhere.

[kmh22]

after reading your title and the first story, i'm not going to bother with the second story.

'two men of Middle Eastern appearance' does not equal Muslim men. think about it. For all I know, those men could have been jewish or french nationals or eastern europeans. there are plenty of jewish people i know who look 'middle eastern'.

you've made an improper leap in your logic from reported fact to (racist?) conclusion.

[sonyfan6]

I'm currently in Germany for the first time in a while and as a Jewish man I can't help but remember the past. I have been contemplating for a few days now starting a similar, but much more generic, thread titled museum of hate. The purpose for the thread would be for people not to spread hateful propaganda but rather a place where people, deeply moved by current events like the one at the start of this thread, or hate that they have encountered in their personal lives or even on the internet could be exposed and debunked.

I've struggled for some time to figure out the best way to deal with hate speech on forums. Recently, and mostly due to this board's rules of not insulting other members, I have started to report prejudicial hate speech. This is not the best way to deal with it for two reasons. One, as an American I understand the benefit of an open exchange of ideas, which allows for people to express hate speech in the open but similarly allows people to debunk it in the open. The alternative is not to have no hate speech but rather private hate speech where it cannot be debunked. Further, silencing speech tends to give the impression that one is incapable of countering it.

The other reason that this is bad is specific to being Jewish. Jews are unfortunately the only people stuck with the stereotype of being manipulative (seen in modern day as the controlling media/government/money myths). This is very unfortunate because it means that in protesting hate speech against them Jews tend to supply their enemies with ammunition to use against them. Anti-semetics can point to the Jewish outrage and claim that it is an example of Jewish manipulation, which is attempting to silence them. Of course, in point of fact, it is the anti-semetics which are trying to stop the free exchange of ideas but silencing the Jewish response. David Irving, for example, took it to a new level when he sued Deborah Lipstadt (who I recently had the privalege of hearing talk in person) for refering to him in passing in her book Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory as a Holocaust Denier. As part of the pretrial he offered to settle if she destroyed all copies of her book. Despite this free speech advocates turned up to represent David Irving. The fact that Deborah Lipstadt was a free speech advocate herself was only used by the anti-semites as a pretext for a Jewish conspiracy on free speech. Only because of the stereotype of Jews as manipulative could someone trying to express an opposing opinion be considered an enemy of free speech and the person trying to silence it a champion of free speech. As a note, even after her ordeal with David Irving she still opposes laws against outlawing speech denying genocide.

Hence, I think I've finally decided that the best way to deal with hate speech that I encounter from now on while on this forum is not to report it. Rather to add it on a single thread with the original poster's identity hidden to make it abundantly clear that this is not about silencing hate but rather educating against it. All members of the community would be welcome to use the thread in the same manner. Does this sound like something people would be interested in?

[DINAMO788]

A&H, bound to happen because there are crazy people everywhere? where else have you heard of something like this? a jewish women who was manhdndled and drawn a swatstika on her stomatch. and who else have you heard done these terrible things to others.....i havent heard of jews persecuting muslims this way?

and kmh, i am absolutely positive they are muslim. it was publicized in a french paper, so of course they are going to be a descrete as possible, but use your brain. shame you wont read the other article. it gives a first hand look at what its really like in france.

i like the idea, i wont like how random people will come in and without reading any of the previous discussions, make their own assunptions and uneducated posts.

[Axe&Hammer]

A&H, bound to happen because there are crazy people everywhere?
By messed up,I meant racists and/or bigots but yes there are crazy people everywhere too.;)



where else have you heard of something like this?Korea,South Africa,Brazil,the US,the UK,Russia..just about every place on earth with a minority

a jewish women who was manhdndled and drawn a swatstika on her stomatch. and who else have you heard done these terrible things to others.....Oh noes,at least she wasn't raped,and forced to take care of the mixed child,then viewed as an outcast,or forced into slavery...:roll:


i havent heard of jews persecuting muslims this way?R U Serial? you have heard of Israel right?:suspect:

[sonyfan6]

DINAMO did not quote an article with a full description of the attack:

France refuses to call attack in which swastika was drawn on woman's body anti-Semitic
Published: April 29, 2007

Days before the presidential elections in France, authorities are hesitating to call the attack on 22-year-old Audrey Brachelle in Marseilles last Thursday an anti-Semitic incident.

According to the victim, two Middle-Eastern looking men began following her on her way to the metro station in La Rose, a Marseilles neighborhood with many Arab and Jewish residents. She claims the attackers grabbed her cellular phone and then noticed her locket with the Hebrew word "Chai." According to Brachelle, the attackers then began hitting her in the head, cut her hair with a knife, and slashed her shirt. The men drew a swastika on her bare chest and ran away.

The French police have no evidence disproving Brachelle's account, and they have not said they have reason to doubt her claims. Brachelle even reenacted the attack at the scene of the crime. Despite all this, the police spokesman has only said the case "required further investigation."

According to Haaretz, this is probably because defining the incident as anti-Semitic could have broad political consequences for the final round of presidential elections, which are scheduled for May 6.

Meanwhile, according to the victim's family, Brachelle refuses to leave the house and, Haaretz reported, "she has been frightened, confused and suffering from acute headaches since the incident." The family told Haaretz, "We can't even go near her, she just screams at us to leave her alone."

Furthermore I have seen other articles that have specifically mentioned that the attackers were identified as Muslim not by their appearance but by statements uttered during the attack. I have also seen an article that said that the swastika was in fact carved into the woman with the knife.

Frankly the 'disturbing' part is not, as Axe&Hammer pointed out that a hateful event occurred (these sorts of things happen in many places around the world and to many different minorities) but that it happened in France, which is, in theory, a more tolerant society. Anti-semetic incidents of this nature have been on the rise in France in recent years. It is becoming increasingly common. The sad part is that the French government, for political reasons, is not doing enough to stop it.

Simply put, while kmh22 is technically correct that there is no evidence that the attackers in this case were Muslims, just of Middle Eastern descent, you can read the report by the European Union's Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia issued March 31, 2004 researchers found that young Muslims were the biggest force behind a wave of anti-Semitic incidents and attacks in Europe since 2001.

The good news is that there are individuals in the European Muslim community that are speaking against this sort of thing. The bad news is that there are also individuals that are encouraging it. This is particular true of the groups that would be labeled as Islamists or radical Muslims (and has been shown to be statistically and geographically correlated). The really bad news is that the French government has not done nearly enough to stop it and it has continued to rise, with the number of incidents more than doubling every year and the nature of the attacks becoming more serious.

There are also those, particularly among the Muslim community that make comments similar to those of Axes&Hammer equating the violence against Jews in France or other parts of the world to the Israeli military presence in the Gaza Strip (which incidentally ended a couple years ago) and the West Bank. Regardless of whether you agree with this comparison it should be irrelevant. This was not an Israeli woman that was attacked. The attackers did not ask this woman about her political views nor did they follow her leaving a political rally. They simply saw a woman wearing a necklace with the hebrew word chai (meaining 'life') and brutally attacked her because they identified her as Jewish. The attackers had no knowledge that this woman was any more contected to Palestinians than Tibetians.

So as should be obvious from my post I disagree with Axes&Hammers reaction belittling this incident. To suggest that this is unimportant compared to other atrocities is insensitive. To say that a woman on the way home from work was attacked, beaten, stripped and had a hate symbol painted on her should be grateful (I know that you didn't use this word but it was implied in the language of your response) that she wasn't raped is wrong. The comparison to slavery is apt as really, the only symbol that exists that is similar to the nazi symbol in modern day hate is the burning cross. It is a symbol that means there are people hiding amongst your neighbors that do not value your life and will not hesitate to kill you.

In response to the specific comparison regarding Israel, while this isn't the appropriate thread for it and I would direct you to the ongoing Israel thread if you wish to argue this point further. What I will say is that the comment is dangerously close to what is academically called 'softcore' Holocaust Denial. There is the more obvious 'hardcore' Holocaust Denial where one denies that the Holocaust occurred in the manner that it is documented to have occured. There is also the more subtle 'softcore' Holocaust Denial, which often rears itself in cartoons published by Neo-Nazis and other sources as well, comparing other, lesser events, most often in Israel to the Holocaust. To claim that Israel is commiting a Holocaust against the Palestinians requires that one either a) be misinformed about what happened during the Holocaust b) be misinformed about what's happening to the Palestinians or c) understand what's happening and what happened and is actively attempting to misinform people by making a comparison between the two. I don't think you were trying to make this comparison however your words could be easily intepretted that way because of the use of the swastika in this particular case. I think you were however, just making a general comparison about a Jew being attacked in France being equivalent to a Muslim attacked in Israel. I'm just pointing out that there is a fine line and while you are on the correct side of it, I wanted you to be aware that it is there.

I would also say that I agree with the equation in principle (hate attack in France equals hate attack in Israel) however I disagree with the specifics of the case because Israel, unlike France, is doing much more to stop its citizens from spreading hate and taking part in hate attacks. Just look at the Koch party in Israel for an example.

This is, of course, all irrelevant to the case. People should be able to condemn a hate crime without the extra discussion involved.

[Sventax]

Well, I don't like the Nazi sign....but maybe the French do?
THE description of th e two man are to vague ...they could have been Marrocans (they are plentyful) ..but also French people can be dark to and have curly hair...so...somebody deliberately wanted to interpret the "two guys" as Middle-eastern... I hounestly believe it was either Marrocans or Frenchies

[Tha_Legend]

Time to create a new Zion.

[DINAMO788]

its in the right spot. we wont break just because of all the hate around us.

[Riskbreaker]

based on history, france seems like one of the most unstable and violent countries ever.

you would think that they would try harder to stop anti-semetic stuff seeing as how their country was taken over by the Nazis.

i guess since they had all those riots months ago their resources are stretched thin.

[shcndw]

I'm iraqi but a christian, and people living in countries like iraq were able to live with each other, but since U.S.A got involved Muslims around the world started...... cba to finish.

[DINAMO788]

well this isn't the first time incidents like this happened. its been going on for centuries from the pogroms to all other persecution.

plus, the US invasion of iraq has little to do with muslim attacks on jews

and risk thats a good ppoint, i just think that france is the pussiest country in europe and is afraid to take a stance on anything that might be taken as offensive

[roadkill]

Anti semitism in France? Last time i heard of such a thing, the person who claimed to be a victim of anti semitic hatred made the whole thing up;

http://www.crosswalk.com/1273770/

I seem to remember something a while back in France as well where jewish graves were found to have been vandalised with Swastikas drawn where the attack was found to have been carried out by non other than jews themselves.

[sonyfan6]

Anti semitism in France? Last time i heard of such a thing, the person who claimed to be a victim of anti semitic hatred made the whole thing up;

http://www.crosswalk.com/1273770/

I seem to remember something a while back in France as well where jewish graves were found to have been vandalised with Swastikas drawn where the attack was found to have been carried out by non other than jews themselves.

Wait, so one, non-Jewish woman makes up a false claim of being attacked and suddenly all the well documented anti-semetic attacks are unfounded? That's some pretty sick, twisted logic. The only other time I've heard of something like this is people saying rape doesn't exist following a woman withdrawing her allegation against her attacker.

I'm familar with the second story of Jewish cemetaries being desecrated and having Swastikas drawn on them. I call bs on your allegation that it was done by Jews.

According to every report out there the amount of anti-semetic incidents has doubled (or increased more) every year for the last few years in most of Europe, especially France. I find it very disturbing that you deny that these hate crimes occurred. Why do people feel the need to either deny or write off hate against Jews?

[DINAMO788]

its terrible. just like amindejad, thinking if they deny it long enough it will go away. there is no doubt about the high presence of hate crimes on jews in France. the french government doesn't make much news about it because they dont want to show how out of hand its getting, but like sonyfan6 said, its only getting worse, things are only increasing and nothing is being done about it. sickening and pathetic on France's part, then again, i dont expect much better from the country

[Firefox]

Muslims are persecuted in many countries as well, but I guess you don't care now do you?

[DINAMO788]

I care about the innocent ones, but no one gets treated like jews. i dont hear anything about muslim persecuation on the same scale even as jewish persecuation. and i hope the extremist ones get persecuted because those monsters deserve to be.

edit: thats a lie. to be honest i dont really care, but i have good reaosn to not care because as someoen pointed out, a muslim would most likely with death upon you, if they knew were jewish, regardless of who you are. the jewish people are more than happy and willing to make peace, so why isn't their peace? its not because of us.

[sonyfan6]

Muslims are persecuted in many countries as well, but I guess you don't care now do you?

Actually I do care. I think my previous posts on these boards have made that quite clear. If I remember correctly, you +rep'd me for coming down on a poster who was being a bigot to Muslims over the summer.

The point here, is that there is no reason, none at all, that people can't simply condemn a hate crime.

If I'm counting correctly there are a total of 10 people that responded to this thread (not including the original poster) and only myself and Riskbreaker made responses that can be viewed as condemning the hate crime. The other posters either belittled, denied or excused the incident.
20% is pretty bad.

[shcndw]

State some of the countries which muslims being persecuted?

vids of christian presecution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuZKkMuXinw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP4CvfnbQaw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM6JY-hgrtI&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tptjDugqXiM

May god forgive and have mercy...

And this is the tiniest fraction of what is happening..

[sonyfan6]

shcndw, there are places where muslims are persecuted. In the same manner that I previously stated it wasn't right for others to belittle the suffering of Jews by pointing out that others suffer, it also is not right for you to dismiss firefox's claim of muslim suffering by citing examples of muslims persecuting christians. ***-for-tat is no excuse for hate crimes. A reasonable person should be able to objectively condemn hate crimes against all groups of people.

[shcndw]

I know muslim's get persecuted but if a christian or any other religious group entered a mosque and shot the people in it will be ALL-OVER the news. The media wont post on their channels and websites if a temple or an church has been attacked by any other religion extremist members, they will let it just bypass. The post i did above was just to show why christians are immigrating from countries, because the human rights over any other religion is pratically illegal. This could be same with any other religion...

[Doc Evils]

Sorry I have hard time believing they some how managed to see her chain and read hebrew and then magically find a knife and carve it into her?:suspect:

I have a lot of Jewish friends and I've never heard anything like this before.

[roadkill]

Wait, so one, non-Jewish woman makes up a false claim of being attacked and suddenly all the well documented anti-semetic attacks are unfounded? That's some pretty sick, twisted logic. The only other time I've heard of something like this is people saying rape doesn't exist following a woman withdrawing her allegation against her attacker.

Show me exactly in that particular post where i put forth this logic.

I'm familar with the second story of Jewish cemetaries being desecrated and having Swastikas drawn on them. I call bs on your allegation that it was done by Jews.

As you would do, and the only reason you have done so is because i haven't posted a source. There is one, only i can't be bothered to look for it to prove a point to someone so hopelessly clueless.

According to every report out there the amount of anti-semetic incidents has doubled (or increased more) every year for the last few years in most of Europe, especially France. I find it very disturbing that you deny that these hate crimes occurred. Why do people feel the need to either deny or write off hate against Jews?

Edit:

1)

Which 'hate crimes' are you speaking of?

2)

Where have i 'denied' that they have occurred?

3)

'Every report out there'. Produce them, please.

Every year, every Month, theres a new story, where anti semitic statistics have "doubled" in Europe. Every now and again we get sick of hearing about stuff that doesn't exist or happen. Its been this way since news reports began. Hmmm. I wonder. Gee, what about the news report of the "holocaust" of 6 million that occured in Europe in 1919? What, you never heard of that? Well they pushed it in 1919, NYT.

[OKlondon]

Racism is bad!!! But really you are making a big deal out of this, everywhere there is rascism, try and not let get to you and live your own life.

Making this thread is pointless!!!

[sonyfan6]

Show me exactly in that particular post where i put forth this logic.

Sure:

Anti semitism in France? Last time i heard of such a thing, the person who claimed to be a victim of anti semitic hatred made the whole thing up;

http://www.crosswalk.com/1273770/

I seem to remember something a while back in France as well where jewish graves were found to have been vandalised with Swastikas drawn where the attack was found to have been carried out by non other than jews themselves.

The article that you linked to cite your denial of anti-semitism in France was a story of woman that was not Jewish making up a claim that she was attacked by people who appeared African or Middle Eastern in appearance because, according to her claim, they believed her to be Jewish. The article goes on to say that the police decided that she was lying. You chose to cite this article to back your claim that anti-semitic incidents are made up, specifically, that the well known cases of Swastikas being drawn on graves were done by Jews.

As I stated previously in response to your post: Wait, so one, non-Jewish woman makes up a false claim of being attacked and suddenly all the well documented anti-semetic attacks are unfounded? That's some pretty sick, twisted logic. The only other time I've heard of something like this is people saying rape doesn't exist following a woman withdrawing her allegation against her attacker.

I stand by this comment. This is exactly what your words show.

As you would do, and the only reason you have done so is because i haven't posted a source. There is one, only i can't be bothered to look for it to prove a point to someone so hopelessly clueless.

This was your response to my calling bs on your Swastikas being drawn by Jews. Basically you are refusing to show any evidence. Instead, as previously mentioned, you are relying on your article of a non-Jewish woman lying about an attack to prove that anti-semitic incidents are in fact perpetrated by none other than the victims themselves.



Edit:

1)

Which 'hate crimes' are you speaking of?


Specifically, as mentioned in my post the ones against Jews, which you are denying occured because, as you have pointed out as evidence, one non-Jewish woman made a false claim and therefore the hate crimes against Jews are actually committed by the victims themselves.

2)

Where have i 'denied' that they have occurred?


I think I've been over this already in this post but for completeness. You a) made one sarcastic comment regarding anti-semitism in France inplying that it did not exist. You then went on to site a similar incident, except by a non-Jewish woman, that made the whole thing up as 'proof' that this did not occur. Finally, you used the same evidence, to back up an even larger claim that other anti-semitic incidents, specifically the painting of Swastikas on Jewish graves was done by the victims themselves. That is textbook denial.

3)

'Every report out there'. Produce them, please.

I already produced one: European Union's Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia issued March 31, 2004

Here's another one http://usinfo.state.gov/eur/Archive/2005/Jan/05-93928.html

Furthermore if you type 'anti-semitism europe' into google you will be treated to over a million hits. The first page alone contains numerous links to various studies.

Frankly, I don't appreciate your demanding that I produce more sources on the matter when I already had produced the excellent source of the EUMC. Especially when you follow up your demand with this:

Every year, every Month, theres a new story, where anti semitic statistics have "doubled" in Europe. Every now and again we get sick of hearing about stuff that doesn't exist or happen. Its been this way since news reports began. Hmmm. I wonder. Gee, what about the news report of the "holocaust" of 6 million that occured in Europe in 1919? What, you never heard of that? Well they pushed it in 1919, NYT.

So clearly, you've seen or at least heard about these reports you just deny that the incidents exist. Your denial of anti-semitism is disturbing, especially when combined with the other hateful things you've said on other threads regarding Jews. While you have not stated that you deny the Holocaust I can't help but compare your rhetoric to the bewildering statements made by Holocaust deniers who in the same speech will deny that the Holocaust occured and then announce that if it were to have occured the Jews would have deserved it.

[roadkill]

Sure:



The article that you linked to cite your denial of anti-semitism in France was a story of woman that was not Jewish making up a claim that she was attacked by people who appeared African or Middle Eastern in appearance because, according to her claim, they believed her to be Jewish. The article goes on to say that the police decided that she was lying. You chose to cite this article to back your claim that anti-semitic incidents are made up, specifically, that the well known cases of Swastikas being drawn on graves were done by Jews.

Where did i make that statement? Nowhere, if you're having difficulty reading, heres what i said:

"Anti semitism in France? Last time i heard of such a thing".





This was your response to my calling bs on your Swastikas being drawn by Jews. Basically you are refusing to show any evidence. Instead, as previously mentioned, you are relying on your article of a non-Jewish woman lying about an attack to prove that anti-semitic incidents are in fact perpetrated by none other than the victims themselves.

Sorry, but i don't go around making stuff like that up. I don't have a source, no - and i really don't care that i don't. If you think that i sat and made it up, thats fine.




Specifically, as mentioned in my post the ones against Jews, which you are denying occured because, as you have pointed out as evidence, one non-Jewish woman made a false claim and therefore the hate crimes against Jews are actually committed by the victims themselves.

I didn't deny it occured. Give me the exact sentence where i did, a vague rant or broad quote will not suffice.



I think I've been over this already in this post but for completeness. You a) made one sarcastic comment regarding anti-semitism in France inplying that it did not exist. You then went on to site a similar incident, except by a non-Jewish woman, that made the whole thing up as 'proof' that this did not occur. Finally, you used the same evidence, to back up an even larger claim that other anti-semitic incidents, specifically the painting of Swastikas on Jewish graves was done by the victims themselves. That is textbook denial.

Sure.



So clearly, you've seen or at least heard about these reports you just deny that the incidents exist. Your denial of anti-semitism is disturbing, especially when combined with the other hateful things you've said on other threads regarding Jews. While you have not stated that you deny the Holocaust I can't help but compare your rhetoric to the bewildering statements made by Holocaust deniers who in the same speech will deny that the Holocaust occured and then announce that if it were to have occured the Jews would have deserved it.

We're not talking about the "other" holocaust, (And you don't want to go there, because i doubt that you've spent as many years on that as i have) we're talking about the holocaust the jews told us was happening after and during WWI, where 6,000,000 jews were dying and being persecuted in Europe.

Yet this clearly never happened. Why would someone lie about this? It just so happens i have sources for these disgusting lies at hand;

- "The Crucifixion of jews must stop!": Article, The American Hebrew, 31/10/19.

What Crucifixion?

- "the destruction of European Jewry during World War Two has obliterated the memory of the first holocaust of the 20th century": Yehuda Bauer, My Brother's Keeper.

What first holocaust?

- "As the armies rolled back and forth in desperate conflict over the borders of Poland, Galicia, and East Prussia, terror, desolation and death descended on the civilian population in general, but most of all upon the seven million Jews. The Christian Poles, Ruthenians and Germans suffered the inevitable hardships that attend all warfare; but the Jews, already proscribed by the Russians and Poles, met with a concentrated orgy of hatred, blood lust and vindictive opportunity that threatened to wipe them out in one vast holocaust.": Nathan Schachner, The Price of Liberty. P.60.

7 million jews were killed in WWI? The word liar comes to mind here. Where is the evidence to support this incredible claim? There is none, because it didn't happen. That it didn't happen isn't the point, that this is a blatant and disgusting lie is.

If you're keeping score here, according to prominent jewish sources - up to 13 million jews were slaughtered between both World Wars.

Check it out;

- 1914: Population 13,500,000.
- 1948: Population 11,500,000

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/worldpop.html

Thats a hell of a lot of procreation.

[DINAMO788]

roadkill i dont know why you're going off on such tangents, but if you "dont care" to privide sources when called out about it, then your words aren't credible and depending on what you type, can be considered libel...not that that matters on a forum lol.

but seriously, the purpose of this thread is to expose how bad things are in France for jews and how incidents like this are becoming all too common. I donthear of such extreme cases anywhere else in the western world, aside form France and it does have the largest muslim population outside of the middle east.

the fact that you have not shown outrage or even sympathy to the victim sickens me.

and oklondon dont be stupid. turning a blind eye to such incidents and ssying they are so common its not worth mentioned is just irresponsible. we need to know about these things so that we have a geeater awareness of whats going on in the world and aren't blind to it.....as many people want us to be.

[sonyfan6]

First, let me apologize to everyone else here because roadkill and I are about to hijack this thread with an argument.

Where did i make that statement? Nowhere, if you're having difficulty reading, heres what i said:

"Anti semitism in France? Last time i heard of such a thing".



Selectively quoting yourself much? In fact, if you bothered to quote yourself a few more words...

....the person who claimed to be a victim of anti semitic hatred made the whole thing up;


That statement completely turns around the meaning. The original question is hypothetical, meaning the answer is assumed. The only question is whether you're assuming a positive or negative response. As is always the case in the written word, the context, in this case the following sentence, must be examined to determine whether an affirmative or negative is expected. You intentionally decided to quote just the beginning of your next sentence to make it appear that you expected an affirmative response. The complete sentence, however, makes it abundantly clear that the hypothetical question is asking for a negative response: ie. the denial of anti-semitic incidents.

Frankly, with you misquoting yourself in an intentionally misleading manner I've lost even more respect for your citation capabilities. This of course leads us right into...

Sorry, but i don't go around making stuff like that up. I don't have a source, no - and i really don't care that i don't. If you think that i sat and made it up, thats fine.

No rationale person should take your word for it, especially in light of some of your previous choice words regarding Jews in the past on these boards and your inability to even quote yourself accurately on a topic that is still on the same page.


I didn't deny it occured. Give me the exact sentence where i did, a vague rant or broad quote will not suffice.


1) In the second part of your original message you literally said that Jews wrote Swastikas on the graves of their own ancestors. You have continued to insist upon this claim in your subsequent messages. I seem to remember something a while back in France as well where jewish graves were found to have been vandalised with Swastikas drawn where the attack was found to have been carried out by non other than jews themselves.

2) Literally saying something is not necessary to convey a point. Academic discourse, and the written word in general, is full of something know as inference. In the first half of your first e-mail you wrote in response to a hate crime that the last hate crime of that nature you had heard of was false. This is denial through inference. As an example, Holocaust deniers rarely stand up and say "I deny the Holocaust." David Irving was certainly capable of writing an entire book denying the Holocaust without ever literally saying those words. Inference is a part of written and spoken communication and you definitely used it in your first message.Anti semitism in France? Last time i heard of such a thing, the person who claimed to be a victim of anti semitic hatred made the whole thing up;

3) In your second message you went even further. You did not limit your denial to the original incident and the second one that you brought up, but instead elevated your denial to the entire study of the increase in anti-semitism in Europe. Every year, every Month, theres a new story, where anti semitic statistics have "doubled" in Europe. Every now and again we get sick of hearing about stuff that doesn't exist or happen.



We're not talking about the "other" holocaust, (And you don't want to go there, because i doubt that you've spent as many years on that as i have) we're talking about the holocaust the jews told us was happening after and during WWI, where 6,000,000 jews were dying and being persecuted in Europe.

Yet this clearly never happened. Why would someone lie about this? It just so happens i have sources for these disgusting lies at hand;

- "The Crucifixion of jews must stop!": Article, The American Hebrew, 31/10/19.

What Crucifixion?

- "the destruction of European Jewry during World War Two has obliterated the memory of the first holocaust of the 20th century": Yehuda Bauer, My Brother's Keeper.

What first holocaust?

- "As the armies rolled back and forth in desperate conflict over the borders of Poland, Galicia, and East Prussia, terror, desolation and death descended on the civilian population in general, but most of all upon the seven million Jews. The Christian Poles, Ruthenians and Germans suffered the inevitable hardships that attend all warfare; but the Jews, already proscribed by the Russians and Poles, met with a concentrated orgy of hatred, blood lust and vindictive opportunity that threatened to wipe them out in one vast holocaust.": Nathan Schachner, The Price of Liberty. P.60.

7 million jews were killed in WWI? The word liar comes to mind here. Where is the evidence to support this incredible claim? There is none, because it didn't happen. That it didn't happen isn't the point, that this is a blatant and disgusting lie is.

If you're keeping score here, according to prominent jewish sources - up to 13 million jews were slaughtered between both World Wars.

Check it out;

- 1914: Population 13,500,000.
- 1948: Population 11,500,000

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../worldpop.html

Thats a hell of a lot of procreation.


And we get to something I've long since known: you are in fact a Holocaust denier. Once again, like David Irving, you are not outright saying you deny it, but you refer to the systematic extermination of six million Jews by Nazi Germany as the "other" holocaust. If you were not a Holocaust denier you would have simply used the phrase "We're not talking about the Holocaust." This is, of course, another example of inference, but as you will see below, I can conclusively show that I am correct:

For the fun of it I typed your very first quote "The Crucifixion of jews must stop!" into google and what do I get but tons of search results linking directly to Holocaust denial webpages, including some neo-nazi groups. I also find this nice link http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/ which also sites the same passage but does so in pointing out common techniques of Holocaust denial.

For those who are lazy here is the direct link to the page dealing with the origin of this particular technique for Holocaust denial: http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/wwi-holocaust-01.html I recommend following that link as it has some useful links imbedded in the text, which will let you see the context of the original article for yourself. This is of course something that roadkill would never show you because his citation does not actually support his point.

On January 30, 1994, Dan Gannon posted an article to UseNet's newsgroup alt.revisionism that asserted that the Jews had claimed that there was a Holocaust during World War I:

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBORS.

Mr. Gannon would do well to heed his own advice, as we will see...

Though few remember, there was supposedly a Jewish "Holocaust" during World War I, in addition to the Jewish "Holocaust" of World War II! Not only that, but the number of victims was claimed, both times, to have been SIX MILLION!!! The "evil" Germans supposedly did it TWICE! Actually, they never even did it ONCE.

The FIRST alleged "Holocaust of Six Million Jews at the hands of the Germans" has been forgotten, but the SECOND alleged "Holocaust of Six Million Jews at the hands of the Germans" is today a highly-promoted OFFICIAL TRUTH.

The reason the first "Holocaust" story was discarded is, I think, related to the saying, "If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried." They failed to convince everyone the first time, so they quit publicizing it. Then they tried the same stunt again later, after World War II, and now they've got most people believing it! But that is changing.

SIX MILLION JEWS exterminated during World War I, too?!?

In a major speech in October, 1919, in Albany, New York, Martin Glenn (a past governor of New York) reported at length to a rapt audience on "the extermination of 6 million Jews and the holocaust of European Jewry" during "the Great War" (i.e., World War I).

This now rarely-remembered claim was publicized in, among others, the October 31, 1919, issue of the American Hebrew Magazine, published by the American Jewish Committee. [1]

First of all, Martin's last name is Glynn. Let's assume that to be a typographical error or a mistranscription.

Secondly, there is no indication within the article itself that the text originated as a speech.

It is important to note that nowhere in the text is any mention made of "the extermination of 6 million Jews and the holocaust of European Jewry during the Great War".

In fact, there is no mention made of "extermination" at all.

The article is instead about the threat of starvation to about seven million people (six million Jewish adults and eight hundred thousand children). Neither is there any mention of "Germans" in the text, and it would be a far stretch to even claim that it was implied; no mention is even made of the war.

Except for the fact that the word "Holocaust" is used in the original article, Mr. Gannon has completely misrepresented the original text. (Even in this instance, the original text is at variance with Mr. Gannon's claims, as it warns about a "threatened holocaust," and does not make any reference to one actually having occurred.)

Recently, the Institute for Historical Review has also seen fit to present this article from American Hebrew Magazine.

So there you have it. The claim that roadkill is making is based on an article on January 30, 1994 by Dan Gannon, where Dan Gannon, much like roadkill himself, misrepresents the article that he is citing to make it fit his own purposes. Dan Gannon explicitly stated that the Holocaust (which he refers to as the second) did not occur. Roadkill is reciting his argument but has not bothered to outright announce this. All Holocaust denial tends to work the same way from Dan Gannon up to David Irving. The trouble with denying the Holocaust is that it is the most well documented genocide in history. (I'm not talking about documented after the fact, but by the Germans themselves. You can even see the patent for the ovens in the German patent office.) So deniers need to take a fair amount of liberty with citations in order to give their denials any validity. Then they just spend a lot of time referencing each other. However, once you trace it back to the original source you will always find it to be misrepresented.

Take for example a classic David Irving move where he claimed Hitler had nothing to do with the Holocaust. David Irving cites as evidence a communication from Hitler on the Night of Broken Glass urging Germans to stop atrocities against the Jews. He cites the original communication. However, the actual communication does not say atrocities, it says arson. Hitler wasn't, as David Irving implies, upset that Jews were being attacked, he was upset that people were setting fires which have a nasty habit of spreading!

As Deborah Lipstadt wrote in her book on the subject:
These works demonstrate how deniers misstate, misquote, falsify statistics, and falsely attribute conclusions to reliable sources. They rely on books that directly contradict their arguments, quoting in a manner that completely distorts the authors' objectives. Deniers count on the fact that the vast majority of readers will not have access to the documentation or make the effort to determine how they have falsified or miscontrued information.

At any rate, this should, once and for all, prove that roadkill is a Holocaust denier and anti-semite. It is impossible to be a Holocaust denier and not be anti-semitic. The belief of Holocaust denial is based on the foundation that a) there is a Jewish conspiracy to lie about the Holocaust b) the Jews blackmailed the Germans for money (reparations) and land (Israel) c) the manner that the Jews used to blackmail the Germans is their Elders of Zion type control of world governments, which if the Germans did not cave in to the blackmail the Jews would use to forever keep Germany from engaging with the world politic.

So to wrap up: I do not believe roadkill in the slightest when he, a Holocaust denier and anti-semite, claims that Swastikas were painted on Jewish graves by Jews and that the studies regarding anti-semitic incidents are lies. Finally, to Oklondon, I would like to say that this thread is a great example of why discussing these issues are so important.

Finally, I want to respond directly to this:

(And you don't want to go there [the Holocaust], because i doubt that you've spent as many years on that as i have)

Bring it on. The idea that you've studied the Holocaust beyond reading some Holocaust denial literature is laughable as I think I've fully demonstrated to any rationale person reading.

edit:

Further I want to make this part public. I am reporting the post where roadkill repeats a made his Holocaust denial claims with the following text: In this post, roadkill repeats a well documented lie used by Holocaust deniers to spread bigotry and hatred against Jews. This is only the latest of a number of posts made by roadkill showing a disturbing trend of hate mongering. I am reporting this post to make my intensions and wishes quite clear. I do not want roadkill disciplined. I do not want roadkill's posts removed. I do not want to the topic locked. I am an American and value freedom of speech, even when used by hate mongerers. Now that he has been exposed I expect roadkill to either step back or, more likely, act like a cornered animal and lash out even more violently. I expect him to say some very hurtful things in his next response, however I would like to reiterate that I do not want any discipline to be taken against roadkill. I prefer to have an open exchange of ideas where he is free to announce his lies and his hate and I am free to rebutt him with the truth.

edit:

roadkill, rather than continuing the conversation here has decided to create a new thread. You may follow it here: http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=71708

Personally I am against him starting a new thread to continue this conversation. It is a similar tactic used by many such holocaust deniers. The idea isn't to convince people of their points (which they themselves often know to be false) but rather to maximize the spread of misinformation.

At any rate, on another note, more related to this thread Sarkozy won the France presidency. He has actually acknowledged the growing problem of anti-semitism in his campaign and I sincerely hope he acts upon it during his presidency.

[OKlondon]

I think we all know that rascism is bad.

Dicussing whether it happen or not, its just stupid you cant prove it and arguing it will lead no where. We just have to take the source as it is.

Arguing whether who is procecuted more is just ludacris, theres no point arguing that Jews are attacked more than Muslims or visa versa or any other combination. I havent heard anything like this and to argue such a thing is unbelieveable. Over the years I have seen more racism to Muslims, especially because of 9/11. As a Muslim I have had to a certain degree had to put up with this. I personally dont let it get to me, I dont get angry, I just think that I m lucky to appreciate others for who they are. I have never thought that I m suffering more than overs. I think that its warped to think that.


and oklondon dont be stupid. turning a blind eye to such incidents and ssying they are so common its not worth mentioned is just irresponsible. we need to know about these things so that we have a geeater awareness of whats going on in the world and aren't blind to it.....as many people want us to be.


I dont see how I m stupid, I dont see how I m turning a blind eye? What do you want me to do go to France and find the guy. In a way you being racist by saying all Middle Easterns are Muslim? You are certain how you helping? You arent helping your own people, your thread deminshes Muslims. Instead of trying to fix a nearly broken relationship between Jews and Muslims, you are throwing blame and breaking the relationship more. How about trying to show the world where Muslims and Jews get along. Instead you bringing up an event of many where both sides have been victimised and pointing the finger.

Your thread is pointless because 1) You show very little signs of racism is bad full stop. Instead you only believe racism is bad if its against Jews or the "innocent people". What do you classify as innocent? Who are you to judge someone, are you God? That you have the right to label someone innocent.
2) This thread has turned out to be whether its true or not and whos under attack more. Does it really matter who is procecuted? No!!!! The problem is that you are the problem with the world. You highlight a perfectly good source to highlight that racism is bad, NO, instead you point the finger and is racist in return. Its people like you, that racism still exists, you arent an ignorant person but yet you still proceed in procecuting another religion. You make it clear that it was done apparently by a Muslim, in all honesty would have been worse or less worse if was done by for example a Christian.


My friend you are sending out the wrong message you need to stop with the labelling, why couldnt your thead say horrific racist event occured. You sound like to today movies making little jokes of how the police hate black people or if it was a white woman getting attack police would be there instantly. Its crap like this that makes the world a worse place.

If you think I m stupid because I m not crying and demanding that there should be extra security for Jews or something then I m sorry. But your thread is sending out the wrong message hopefully you are not too blind to see.

SonyFan I agree, that not many people have actually said that this hate crime is bad, full stop! Its sad how this thread turned out.

The only thing is to hope she will recover and that people will learn to accept others.

[shcndw]

I myself is a middle eastern and a Christian...

[DINAMO788]

scndw are you chaldian then?

and oklondon what you say sound good and all, and is true for most situations. but idealistic thinking like that can only go so far in the case of the conflict between jews and muslims.
i said your stupid because you said threads like this do nothing and are pointless. i think they spread awareness and knowledge, which are very important. i dont think i've said anything to blatantly demonize(i think thats what you mean instead of deminshes) muslims, but extremist muslim crime jews is not the same as just a regular hate crime. it is a hate crime but there is a history that goes way back, not just regular intolerance.

i have muslim friends and would like to see jews and muslims living peacefully. As far as im concerned, the state of israel has offered that several times but its offer was only really accepted by like jordan and egypt, that is why we cant treat this as an absolute case of just wishing everyone would just cool out. blah im not wording this the best way that i can but.....with this incident being between a jewish victim and a muslim assailant, its different. just as it would have been if it were the other way around. so its not worse if it was a christian that committed the crime, but it would have been different.

[OKlondon]

Dinamo I see where you are coming from, ofcourse its good to increase awareness of racism being bad, but the way this thread has turned out has really just fuelled more conflict. Bringing up Israel and the Middle East really doesnt help in my opinion. Making this a special case becuase its a event between Muslims and Jews really doesnt help at all either. The problem is labelling the victim and the attacker makes it worse, people should be treated individually, whether its for good or bad. It helps people to stop hiding behind their race or beliefs, what happens between two races somewhere in the world should give no reason to attack someone else, nor should a race be targeted because of someone's actions.

[DINAMO788]

it should give no reason but it does. if the woman was not jewish i pretty much 100% garauntee this would not have happened. there are tons fo women of france, non get swatsticas carved into them just for reasons other than race.
in isolated cases, people shoudl be treated individually, but im seeing a reoccuring theme. this shows me that these incidents aren't just regular hate crimes but are a part of something much much larger, i.e. the jewish arab hate. i understand what you're saying. if it were jews doing this, ture i would be a little less outraged but there would be no way for me to defend them as they would only be fueling the hate.again, ideally, race shouldn't matter but it does because incidents like this are repercussions from much larger problems, again, i.e. the jewish/muslim conflict

[Firefox]

My point is, no matter religion, class, race, or gender, persecution is not
right. Even the prophets would not agree with such acts.

[shcndw]

Nope, I'm an syrian orthodox. Which i still dont know what that makes me but the generation have been in iraq since ever...

[HiX]

Now this is new to me. All this while I thought Muslims in France are getting all the ****s. Now it's all about Jews getting hate crimes?

From what I've understand throughout this post, the thread starter is saying a Jewish woman was a victim of a hate crime by 2 Muslim men. Could be, but it's just the same thing just in another country or city. As a muslim, I'm pretty cool with other religions. That is of course, what is taught in the Quran. But the universal truth is, every main religion in the world gets persecuted. Why? Because there's a lot of numbnuts thinking they're righteous.

I can see the threadstarter talkin about Jew hate crimes but I've been hearing and reading far more hate crimes on Muslim in France than Jews. Biased by the media? I don't think so. Why? Because it's there are more hate crimes against Muslim than Jews. Ever heard of Bridgette Bardot?

Now, we hear a lot of suicide bombers from Palestine killing people in Israel. War against terrorism. Israel, USA and Britain unite. How all these terrorists kills people regardlessly. Ya know, all the CNN stuff. But you don't really hear what they've been doing to those Palestinians, haven't you? The Israelis destroyed thousands of Palestinian homes and massacred hundreds of thousands over the years to take their land. The stuff is still goin on till today but you just dont see them on respectable channels such as CNN.

Now, I don't blame the whole Jews for this but I blame the Israeli government and it's allies. However, the Israeli government are basically fanatic devotees. Just more organized.

See? Hate crimes. Goin on around the world. Christians persecuting Muslims in USA, Jews persecuting Muslims in Palestine, Muslims persecuting Jews in France. But hey, there's a lot more people persecuting Muslims than those that does to Jews. I don't sweat about it on this forum because I know a lot of you guys are thinking Muslims are terrorist. We're not. We're all about peace and fighting only when we're attacked. It just so happen that there's a loony cult out there twisting the Muslim faith.

[majinvegeta]

well my other thread was deleted and i was too lazy to remake it but i found another story. yes its again another case but they are becomming far too common in France nowadays.



and im almost 100% sure they will not find the people..as if they care and these attakcs will not diminish.

here is the other article that got my old thread deleted. its simply enrages me how anti-semitism can loom so freely in a western state and yet still be skepticized and ignored.

Calm down there buddy, you Jews aren't the only ones suffering. Look at muslims, bombings, depression, oppression etc. it happens. In France they don't allow for hijabs. In Germany they have a couple of anti-islamic laws too, and on top of that they block this view of tree's that read out a verse from Quran in Arabic. Sounds to me like fools trying to hide the truth, otherwise I don't see any reason for them to hide those tree's from public eyes.

Its funny how Europe even publically said they have a Muslim problem, theres too many muslims in Europe and they want to stop that. Why? why do people want to stop that? why should someone be stopped from converting to a religion? some freedom.

[Denier-of-Soup]

You make my skin crawl, Dinamo.

Before turning this thread into a debate, you guys should've asked yourselves one simple question: are the stories credible? He doesn't even have any sources, for god's sake. For all we know, these stories might have been manipulated or maybe even fabricated, which brings me to my next point.

The Israeli government has been recruiting students to spread this sort of propaganda throughout the web. It's been done before. Take the "Megaphone" software (http://digg.com/politics/The_special_isreali_megaphone_software), for example. All these guys do is make their people look like sorry *** pieces of **** to gain as much sympathy as they can.

[majinvegeta]

You make my skin crawl, Dinamo.

Before turning this thread into a debate, you guys should've asked yourselves one simple question: are the stories credible? He doesn't even have any sources, for god's sake. For all we know, these stories might have been manipulated or maybe even fabricated, which brings me to my next point.

The Israeli government has been recruiting students to spread this sort of propaganda throughout the web. It's been done before. Take the "Megaphone" software (http://digg.com/politics/The_special_isreali_megaphone_software), for example. All these guys do is make their people look like sorry *** pieces of **** to gain as much sympathy as they can.

LMFAO!! haahahahahah

that is the most hilarious thing I have ever heard. Megaphone software that detects anti-semite sites? lol, probably has things like: SEARCH FOR NAZI = GOOD, search for JEWS ARE BAD, search for JEWS ARE EVIL, lolol.

Thanks for the laugh.


As for a women being mangled n stuff? what about Palestine? you forget about those poor muslims? people insult the muslims down there, prevent them from regular prayer, prevent them from going to mosque. There have been many occassions where someone has pulled a hijab off a Muslim women. Shows how well Israel deals with hate and discrimination eh? no wonder those silly stupid muslims want a Palestine, dumb people should just die right?

[sonyfan6]

LMFAO!! haahahahahah

that is the most hilarious thing I have ever heard. Megaphone software that detects anti-semite sites? lol, probably has things like: SEARCH FOR NAZI = GOOD, search for JEWS ARE BAD, search for JEWS ARE EVIL, lolol.

Thanks for the laugh.


As for a women being mangled n stuff? what about Palestine? you forget about those poor muslims? people insult the muslims down there, prevent them from regular prayer, prevent them from going to mosque. There have been many occassions where someone has pulled a hijab off a Muslim women. Shows how well Israel deals with hate and discrimination eh? no wonder those silly stupid muslims want a Palestine, dumb people should just die right?

Eh, I wouldn't take denier's word for it. He was also promoting Jews being responsible for 9/11 and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion over the summer.

But you don't really hear what they've been doing to those Palestinians, haven't you? The Israelis destroyed thousands of Palestinian homes and massacred hundreds of thousands over the years to take their land. The stuff is still goin on till today but you just dont see them on respectable channels such as CNN.

First, let me say I think most of your post was excellent. I do object to this one part of your post where you say that Israel has massacred hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. This simply isn't true. However it is the general impression that one sees on channels like CNN and especially BBC. The news stations tend to give the Palestinian cause a disproportionately large amount of air time compared to groups like Tibetians because the terrorism makes the story 'sexier.' This isn't to say that Israel is perfect, however, the gap between the perception of Israel and the reality is larger than for any other country.

I do agree that there is persecution of Muslims in 'western' civilizations that is not reported and it should be. My mother works with a great woman who was given a really hard time by the US government following 9/11 just because she was a Muslim.

[shcndw]

Don't exactly have to be an muslim to be called a terroist. I get called Iraqi bomber, as i am Iraqi and i stated before i am a christian.

[DINAMO788]

LMFAO!! haahahahahah

that is the most hilarious thing I have ever heard. Megaphone software that detects anti-semite sites? lol, probably has things like: SEARCH FOR NAZI = GOOD, search for JEWS ARE BAD, search for JEWS ARE EVIL, lolol.

Thanks for the laugh.


As for a women being mangled n stuff? what about Palestine? you forget about those poor muslims? people insult the muslims down there, prevent them from regular prayer, prevent them from going to mosque. There have been many occassions where someone has pulled a hijab off a Muslim women. Shows how well Israel deals with hate and discrimination eh? no wonder those silly stupid muslims want a Palestine, dumb people should just die right?


majin your post makes me laugh....and not in a good way.i personally see no problem with megaphone if they use it to counter anti-semitic sites with facts of their own. in fact if thats whats going on, then they are doing everyone a real service.

and no we haven't forgotten about the "poor muslims" as thats the main thing splattered on the news each time there is a war in which israel have the military dominance. your accusation of people insulting them, preventing them from praying...from what do you base these acussations of? nothing, because yea i think so. i dont know what you meant by hijabing a muslim woman. and israel deals with it better than any muslim country. as its been pointed out, israel actually tries and punishes, including jailtime for those who commit hate crimes...its in the records. try to find a muslim state ever punishing a muslim for committing crmes against israel...you wont(sorry sonyfan6 i did kinda steal that from one of your posts lol). and you last sentence is just so completely ignorant it makes me judge you mental health

[Denier-of-Soup]

Eh, I wouldn't take denier's word for it.

I'm afraid you have no other choice. The part about his stories not being credible is inarguable whether you like it or not. When you post stories like that on the web, you usually follow them up with credible sources so your readers know that you aren't feeding them lies and propaganda.

The second part of my post regarding the Megaphone software is fact. There were several news reports on that, including one by The New York Times.

Eh, I wouldn't take denier's word for it. He was also promoting Jews being responsible for 9/11 and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion over the summer.

Also, I never said that the Jews were responsible for 9/11. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?

majin your post makes me laugh....and not in a good way.i personally see no problem with megaphone if they use it to counter anti-semitic sites with facts of their own.

That's where the problem lies, Dinamo. People like you counter anti-Semitic sites with bull****, not facts. I'm still waiting for those sources.

[PiP4LyFe]

Canada's getting pretty bad to, a few months ago a Jewish school was burned down just because it was only for Jewish kids and last weeks a young Jewish man was beat in the street for no reason, and both where caused by Muslims.

[DINAMO788]

pip do you think you can find out what happened to the muslims?


and denier..i forgot to post the article but lemme find it. my second link, which is what locked my other thread had a source and i posted it. im not countering anything. i just posted an article to bring into light some tragic things. i dont know why you come at me so aggressive as if im at fault over posting this story. people need to know and need to be aware.

btw, do you deny that 6 million jews died in the holocaust?

[Denier-of-Soup]

i just posted an article to bring into light some tragic things. i dont know why you come at me so aggressive as if im at fault over posting this story. people need to know and need to be aware.

My aggressiveness wasn't really neccessary, and I apologize for that.

Anyway, the only reason I challenged you was because you were making it look as if this is a one-sided conflict when it's not. Yes, there are racist Muslims murdering innocent Jews, but then again, there are also racist Jews murdering innocent Muslims. The two sides have been caught up in this vicious cycle for so long that we don't even know who started it in the first place.

You, being a Jewish nationalist, will obviously seek to bring the people on your side, correct? But how are you going to get them on your side when there are racist Jews murdering innocent Muslims? By not mentioning that part of the story. This gives people the illusion that the racist Jews aren't murdering any innocent Muslims, while the racist Muslims are murdering lots of innocent Jews. A Palestinian nationalist, on the other hand, will use the exact same method to bring the people on his/her side.

That's what I call propaganda.

btw, do you deny that 6 million jews died in the holocaust?

There are literally hundreds of theories concerning the holocaust. I don't know which one to believe.

[DINAMO788]

well my problem with it is, i dont tell anyone to make a bias judgement, im simply posting one piece of info that i think we should be aware of. if it were the other way around, i'd make sure it was legit but there would be no real way to justify it, especially if the attack was unprovoked. so even though thats how it "can" be seen, thats not how im treating it, even though my tone is sometimes harsh, cases of racial violence should be treated with a harsh tone. but i hope no one thinks that by me posting this one article, the incidents only go one way


also.....read the holocuast thread also in this section. its quite a long read but im sure all of your doubts and questions will be answered there.

[Denier-of-Soup]

well my problem with it is, i dont tell anyone to make a bias judgement

Bravo. That's what propaganda does, Dinamo. It persuades people to make a biased judgement without telling them to do so.

also.....read the holocuast thread also in this section. its quite a long read but im sure all of your doubts and questions will be answered there.

It just looks like another debate to me.

[DINAMO788]

so then can i not post a clear article and express my opinio of it without having it be propaganda?

[PiP4LyFe]

pip do you think you can find out what happened to the muslims?


and denier..i forgot to post the article but lemme find it. my second link, which is what locked my other thread had a source and i posted it. im not countering anything. i just posted an article to bring into light some tragic things. i dont know why you come at me so aggressive as if im at fault over posting this story. people need to know and need to be aware.

btw, do you deny that 6 million jews died in the holocaust?

K well the firebombing happened September 2, 2006 and they just where charged last month.

link to that
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070413/montreal_firebombings_070413/20070413/
http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003695.html

And the person who beat up the young Jewish kid is still at large i believe.

[Denier-of-Soup]

I hope those guys get what they deserve. The same goes for the ones responsible for the attack on the Muslim school in Montreal.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2007/01/16/mtl-muslim.html

so then can i not post a clear article and express my opinio of it without having it be propaganda?

I don't know. Can you?

[DINAMO788]

well i'd like to hear other opinions too but i dont think you can really fault the poster but what others think. unless theres a strong inclination to one said and is obviously biased...the fault is not on the poster but on the reader. unintelligent people who get so easily manipulated from something thats not even meant to manipulate...they just need to learn to think for themselves. if they stay interested, eventually they will hear the other side

[Vulgotha]

I dislike france with the utmost intensity... They've never been worth anything. Especially in the last century.

We saved their butts after their epic WWII blunder:
France: "Ha! the maginot line! We're impenetrable!"
Hitler: "Go around it."

*captures France in around 2 weeks*

...and we suffered (along with other Allied nations) Normandy for them.

and now recently, they've taken to stabbing us in the back publicly!..
Its a darn good thing we're their national guard.

[PiP4LyFe]

Heres a dude that wants all Jews dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXfNuDDXJ4s

[DINAMO788]

yep not much suprise. its common place among the large fundamentalist population. even better that its also being carried out in the name of Allah and mohammed and whatnot.......just imagine the reaction if a christian or a jew was saying this kind of stuff...it would be different

[Denier-of-Soup]

Believe it or not, Christians and Jews actually do say stuff like that, and the reaction isn't very different at all.

[DINAMO788]

i was talking about imaigne the the magnitude and response. obviiusly all groups have people like that, but non more prevalent than muslims.

[Denier-of-Soup]

How do you know that this isn't another illusion brought onto you by the media, which by the way, has been focusing more on Muslim violence ever since 9/11? Do you have any statistical figures to prove that the majority of Muslims are violent?

[Kiricat]

i havent heard of jews persecuting muslims this way?


What do you think the IDF does to Palestinians? Don't make out that Jews are an absolutely innocent party. After all, they happily kicked 700,000 people out of their homes to form their beloved Israel.


Once you've seen Israeli soldiers shooting at a father who is shielding his son from the barrage of bullets and debris, i'll dare you to ask when Jews ever persecute Muslims.

[DINAMO788]

these situations aren't even comparable since they are so different and your sob stories dont work on me because you need to look at things on a grander scaler and not the scale which favors your claim.

just about everything that you said the jews have done, has been done to the jews and has been much worse so dont go down that road.

i was saying i dont hear of jews randomly attacking muslims in western countries out of sheer hate...and definitly not this badely

[Denier-of-Soup]

i was saying i dont hear of jews randomly attacking muslims in western countries out of sheer hate...and definitly not this badely

So the shooting of the father and his son isn't random or hateful enough for you? What goes around comes around, my friend.

these situations aren't even comparable since they are so different

Let's compare them, then.

- IDF Soldier kills an innocent Muslim man and his child
- Racist Muslim attacks and injures an innocent Jew

Point out the differences for me, why don't you?

you need to look at things on a grander scale

Do you want to know how many people have died in the Gaza conflict?

[Kiricat]

these situations aren't even comparable since they are so different

uhhmmm

Your story: Jew attacked by muslim
my story: Muslim attacked by jew

both parties are being attacked? how are they so different, still is persecuting isn't it?

and your sob stories dont work on me because you need to look at things on a grander scaler and not the scale which favors your claim.

so basically i shouldn't do EXACTLY what your doing?

just about everything that you said the jews have done, has been done to the jews and has been much worse so dont go down that road.

So because worse things have happened to jews, they can treat the world like **** then turn round saying "oh, but we had it much worse". An Attack is an Attack. end of.

i was saying i dont hear of jews randomly attacking muslims in western countries out of sheer hate...and definitly not this badely

well i hear of Israeli soldiers beating up palestinian kids all the time oh but it doesn't happen in the west so i guess that makes everything void, yeah?

In the End: Every minority deals with hate, Jews, Muslims, Christians....everyone.

just because you dont hear about it, doesn't mean it never happens.

[Vulgotha]

No, the Jews are most certainly not as radical as the Muslims are. Especially in this violent fashion.

Building a case for that is futile. While you scrounge for examples of "Jewish Hostility" we merely can google up "Islamic attacks", or 9\11 for that matter.

Their religion, or rather, their "Hijacked" religion is one of violence. I don't see any reason to believe otherwise at this moment.


If I were a lesser man, I'd say: The Muslims deserve it, not an ounce of sympathy will be spent for their "Poor treatment.".. its Retribution.


But I'm not a lesser man, and I don't condone such actions. There are always single incidents on either faction, but as a whole, yes, the Muslims are far more violent. I can't believe this is actually being debated.

I don't hear or read about Jewish car bombings, or flying plans into national structures that contain thousands of people. Not buying it.

[Kiricat]

No, the Jews are most certainly not as radical as the Muslims are. Especially in this violent fashion.

Building a case for that is futile. While you scrounge for examples of "Jewish Hostility" we merely can google up "Islamic attacks", or 9\11 for that matter.

Their religion, or rather, their "Hijacked" religion is one of violence. I don't see any reason to believe otherwise at this moment.


If I were a lesser man, I'd say: The Muslims deserve it, not an ounce of sympathy will be spent for their "Poor treatment.".. its Retribution.


But I'm not a lesser man, and I don't condone such actions. There are always single incidents on either faction, but as a whole, yes, the Muslims are far more violent. I can't believe this is actually being debated.

I don't hear or read about Jewish car bombings, or flying plans into national structures that contain thousands of people. Not buying it.

Hey dont get me wrong, I know there are waaaay more Muslim radicals, I never said there wasn't. But when moron's say stuff like:

i havent heard of jews persecuting muslims

that's what really ticks me off. A blind one-sided view on the world.

I'm actually loving how Topic creator seems to conveniently forget about Israel and only concentrate about the west, as if it's the only place where stuff like hate attacks counts.

[DINAMO788]

denier and kiri your arguments are so shallow. god its people like you who have formed a perceptual set and cant get around it.

this is VERY different than whats going on with the IDF because this is a random hate crime in a peaceful city. whats going on in israel/palestine is a political matter and isn't based off of hate, its based off of israel retaking its rightfully earned land.

and kiri when i said "just about everything that you said the jews have done, has been done to the jews and has been much worse so dont go down that road." i was just refuting your example of how much muslims are "persecuted". so arguing that they are persecuted is worthless because everyone gets persecuted.

well if you hear of soliders beating up kids all the time then post the non bias article please. but its common place there because there is a MASSIVE violent conflict going on. there is no massive conflict like that going on in france, the attack was spurred by hate and extremism where as im pretty sure if no one tries to harm the idf soldiers, they wouldn't generally harm anyone. you know israel does punish its own soldiers for using excessive force on palestinians too. you wont find that in any arab country.

again when i said, "i havent heard of jews persecuting muslims"...you took it our of context again and was meaning that in areas where there is no political conflict between jews and arabs....the attacks in those areas can almost only be a result of hate and i havent heard of any jews commiting hate crimes and harming muslims in europe or north america.

[sonyfan6]

I think Karicat was referring to hate crimes by Israeli citizens (a statement I would agree with) and not saying that the IDF was committing hate crimes (a statement that I would disagree with).

The main difference between the two actions is that in Israel the government is extremely serious about protecting their minority populations. Israel probably has the best and most powerful judiciary system of any government in the world. The Supreme Court is not all Jews, it has minority representation, and it can even make rulings against the military and force compliance (and has on many occassions). Even non-citizens can have their cases heard in a timely fashion (often within 24 hours of the initial petition). Probably because of the strength of the judicial system the law in Israel is extremely fair to minority populations. Hate crimes against Muslims are treated exactly the same as hate crimes against Jews. The Koch party, which was comprised of Jewish extremists that preached hate and violence against Muslims was actually banned from government and it's statements condemned by community, religious and government leaders across the country. Jews that attempt terrorist attacks on Muslims are dealt with using the same legal code as Muslim terrorists that attack Jews. In short, the Israeli government, religious institutions and more importantly, society as a whole is vocally against hate speech and violence.

[Denier-of-Soup]

denier and kiri your arguments are so shallow.

They seem shallow because you're failing to see our points, you stupid ******. Hate crimes are hate crimes, whether they're taking place in a war zone or in a peaceful city.

[DINAMO788]

i understand your argument and still think its very shallow because you only see the act that was done and dont look at the big picture. what was done to the woman was a hate crime. whats being done to palestinians by the idf is political matter, not based on pure hate. if you see no difference between the two then there is no more reason for me to try to get through to you

[Denier-of-Soup]

i understand your argument and still think its very shallow because you only see the act that was done and dont look at the big picture.

We're using this event as an example to demonstrate how Muslims are also being preyed upon by racist Jews, just as you were using those two articles at the beginning of this post as examples to demonstrate how Jews are being preyed upon by racist Muslims.

Your English is really weak, Dinamo. What you see as "shallow arguments" might actually be caused by your weak comprehension skills.

[DINAMO788]

i dont see how this is an example about how muslims are preyed upon by racist jews. im not preying upon anyone except the attackers.

and you dont know anything about my english so no need for such pointless insults

[Denier-of-Soup]

and you dont know anything about my english so no need for such pointless insults

That wasn't an insult. Although I might not know anything about your spoken English, I can see that your written English is pretty darn weak just by reading your posts.

i dont see how this is an example about how muslims are preyed upon by racist jews.

How would you feel if a Palestinian militant had murdered an innocent, unarmed Jewish man trying to shield his son? Would you, or would you not post the news report on these forums? For once, please be honest with me when answering this question.

[SnakeDevil]

Another DINAMO post about muslims and Jews, need I remind you that this is a PS3 forum, hence the name of the website, please don't turn this forum into a persecution of muslims.

[sonyfan6]

This is directed at Denier of Soup and Kiricat:

I'm afraid that I must disagree with both of you. A hate crime is defined as a crime motivated by prejudice against a social group. Your hypothetical example of an IDF soldier accidentally shooting two bystanders during an armed engagement cannot be classified as a hate crime because the IDF soldier would have acted the same if he was fighting in a, let's say, Russian town, fighting Russian terrorists, surrounded by Russian bystanders. It is not a hate crime unless the soldier willfully shoots them motivated by hate.

Similarly, I often hear accusations that the American army's actions during the invasions of Afganistan and Iraq were 'terrorist attacks.' Dropping bombs on military targets is allowed by the rules of war even if civilians are killed, so long as the risk to civilians is appropriately weighed against the military objective. It is not the same as a terrorist attack, such as 9/11 WTC, perpetrated on civilians with no military objective other than inducing fear as a means of making political gains.

Legal systems, which are, at least in theory, based on shared moral agreements, understand that the circumstances of a death matter greatly. I find the attitude that all deaths, regardless of circumstances, are immorally equal to be very disturbing. I have a moral preference to see no one die, however I cannot believe in a moral system that places equal guilt on a serial killer and the police officer that is forced to shoot him to protect the innocent.

After all, they happily kicked 700,000 people out of their homes to form their beloved Israel.

I need to strongly disagree with this statement on historical grounds. The Israelis accepted the Partition Plan indicating that they were more than happy to have the Palestinians as their neighbors. The Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations rejected the plan and attempted to destroy Israel. During the conflict some Palestinians were forced to leave however most of the 700,000 left at the behest of the Arab nations which ordered them to get out or be labeled traitors. The continued presence of a large Israeli-Arab population, nearing 2 million (roughly 1/5th of the total population) is proof that the Israelis did not expel the Arabs. Oppositely, 850,000 Jews were forcefully expeled from Arab nations under the threat of death if they remained. The main difference is that Israel absorbed the refugees and the Arab nations refused to absorb the Palestinian refugees. I would love to discuss this in greater detail, but will recommend that we jump over to the ever-present Israel thread to do so.

Hey dont get me wrong, I know there are waaaay more Muslim radicals, I never said there wasn't. But when moron's say stuff like:

Quote:
i havent heard of jews persecuting muslims

that's what really ticks me off. A blind one-sided view on the world.

All that said, I do agree that there are Jewish extremists who do commit hate crimes against Muslims. I definitely consider a Jewish extremist committing a hate crime against Muslims to be equally guilty as a Muslim extremist committing a hate crime against Jews. It's the same thing.

The only difference is how the communities respond to it. Jewish communities of the world as a whole know vocally decry Jewish extremists just as they would Muslim extremists. That's why in Israel both the Jewish extremist and the Muslim extremist are treated the same under Israeli law.

I at one point had a conversation with some of my Muslim friends and asked them why they were not more vocal at decrying Muslim extremists. Their answer, which I found incredibly enlightening, was that they didn't consider the Muslim extremists to be Muslims. I understand this because I feel the same way about Jewish extremists who claim to be doing evil things in the name of the Jewish faith. I pointed out that the Jewish community is generally vocal decry such people. Once again I got a very interesting response. In many of the Arab nations it is the extremists with the guns, making it dangerous for people to decry their actions. Furthermore in America, and many other nations, the very common prejudicial belief that all Muslims are terrorists, makes people fearful that by decrying the extremists that they will provoke this belief by associating their faith with extremist Islam.

[Denier-of-Soup]

It's nice to have my posts replied to by an open-minded individual for once. No sarcasm meant.

It is not a hate crime unless the soldier willfully shoots them motivated by hate.

That's exactly what was happening in that example I was using. I assumed that Dinamo already knew this, and therefore did not feel the need to clarify it beforehand. If it was just a case of an IDF soldier mistaking an innocent man for an enemy, I definitely wouldn't have considered it a hate crime.

Another DINAMO post about muslims and Jews, need I remind you that this is a PS3 forum, hence the name of the website, please don't turn this forum into a persecution of muslims.

Agreed. I've considered writing to the moderators about banning this sort of talk in the forums. They've censored swear words because they offend people, and yet these sort of threads are still allowed on the forums even though they do the exact same thing as swear words.

[DINAMO788]

It's nice to have my posts replied to by an open-minded individual for once. No sarcasm meant.



That's exactly what was happening in that example I was using. I assumed that Dinamo already knew this, and therefore did not feel the need to clarify it beforehand. If it was just a case of an IDF soldier mistaking an innocent man for an enemy, I definitely wouldn't have considered it a hate crime.



Agreed. I've considered writing to the moderators about banning this sort of talk in the forums. They've censored swear words because they offend people, and yet these sort of threads are still allowed on the forums even though they do the exact same thing as swear words.


just because i use a harsh tone when talking about these kinds of sick incidents doesn't mean im open minded so you kindly stfu!

and once again you assume the worst in me i dont hear of idf willing killing muslims because they hate them. there mgiht be a vey few loose cannons like there are in any armed forces but that does no reflect the greater majority of the IDF. plus as i said beofre, if found out that tsoldiers were committing hate crimes then they get punished and sentenced.

banning these kinda of threads would be a horrible idea. its just like england banning certain subjects for history. if you read my posts, nothing is a direct attack on muslims so if they are just that sensitive, thats too bad for them dont read it. if they feel they can refute the claim or provide further clairifcaition then by all means, im not against it. its just pathetic that people like you who come in making accussations about people like me and because i post real news its too hard for you too take. if you dont like it too bad, if you ant anything banned ban it because its wrong, not because it offends a certain group of people even though there is no attack on any group. my threads like this have been one sided but thats because the news i've been getting and seeing is only about one side so dont blame me. feel free to post the other side of the news, as long as its not hatefully or specifically attacking a group i'll be fine it with.

[Denier-of-Soup]

just because i use a harsh tone when talking about these kinds of sick incidents doesn't mean im open minded so you kindly stfu!

There we have it, folks. A perfect example of how weak Dinamo's comprehension skills actually are.

1. Being called open-minded is a compliment, not an insult.
2. The compliment was aimed at sonyfan6, not you.
3. That being said, you're the one who needs to "kindly stfu".

banning these kinda of threads would be a horrible idea.

That's for the moderators to decide.

if you read my posts, nothing is a direct attack on muslims

Yes, because you're attacking them indirectly.

[DINAMO788]

ok once again this will be very easy for me to refute but i hate when whole threads turn into person arguments so i'd be happy to continue this over PMs. PM me if you'd like to have a normal debate because based on what im seeing from you, you barely even take into account all of what i say and you only quote/reply to cut posts that favor you.

so dont reply here to argue, but PM me and i'd be happy to continue

[Denier-of-Soup]

If the moderators decide not to ban these sort of threads, you're welcomed to post as many as you like, but know that I'm going to dedicate myself to countering your propaganda for as long as I'm on these forums. It's going to be a lot harder to pull off your stunts now that I'm back, kid.

[Grifer]

I'd like to bring som background as to why muslims in Europe are quite hostile towards establishment and other cultures nowadays.

Muslim immigrants have become a serious problem for European nations, thanks to touting of multiculturalism instead of assimilation. Governments actually give money for immigrants to keep their traditional values (by subventing some cultural happenings etc.) and high unemployment combined with excessive minimum wages mean that many muslim immigrants have very hard time to find a job, especially the uneducated lot. That means they become increasingly hostile towards the establishment. It's no wonder, that in "welfare states" like France & Sweden problems are deepest. Government policies passivise immigrants, which then become alienated from main population and risk being turned into radicals.

When muslim immigrants don't assimilate to main culture, they start acting towards main population just like they would in their native country. It's no surprise, that islamic immigrants perform much more rapes per capita (in Finland about 1100% more than main population - that's eleven times!), since they view scarfless, loosely clothed women as "filthy *****s" and possibly consider raping as their duty. They can't live in their new land as they should because green-leftist "politically correct" multiculturalists don't force them or at least courage them to do so. In the long run, this doesn't benefit anyone. Right-wing extremists are gaining more support, take a look at France, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Holland or Sweden. The welfare states with massive immigration are experiencing massive rise in far-right support.

What is most surprising, is that those countries with less multiculturistic values and freer markets suffer less problems. Britain has massive muslim population, but when was the last time they torched cars or smashed synagogues? They get jobs and aren't paid for nothing. They become assimilated and must accept main cultures values to survive.
That is unique in Europe, where political correctness has replaced common sense.

[Firefox]

Grifer, you know that in their religion, rape is a major sin and that they would
get a severe punishment in their 'native' countries? I guess you guys don't
punish men severely in Europe for rape?

And when you say a fact like that, get a source...because 'muslims who rape women' are not
muslims at all...since they are going against the basics of their religion which is to respect women.

[DINAMO788]

Grifer, you know that in their religion, rape is a major sin and that they would
get a severe punishment in their 'native' countries? I guess you guys don't
punish men severely in Europe for rape?

And when you say a fact like that, get a source...because 'muslims who rape women' are not
muslims at all...since they are going against the basics of their religion which is to respect women.


i've been hearing a lot about what islam is and how it doesn't condone much of the "bad things" some muslims do. but the extremist ones are the most religious ones usually and they seem to be the ones whogo against their religion the most. islam is said to be a religion of peace yet the extreme religious ones seem to have taken a liking to violence. i dont know much about islam but is murder a crime, regardless for whatever reason?

so im just wondering then how do the religious extremists justify what they do when its pretty much stated to be a crime in islam?
and just another wonder, if one of the basics of their religion is to respect islam them why do they subjugate them so much and create such enormous inequality. i understand that equalty doesn't necessarily mean respect but its getting taken very far

[Denier-of-Soup]

i've been hearing a lot about what islam isr

You can't base your opinion on a religion based on what you hear from other people. How do you even know what they're telling you is the truth?

yet the extreme religious ones seem to have taken a liking to violence.

Get this: Muslim extremists aren't actually religious. They're racist people using Islam as an excuse to carry out their attacks. Remember the KKK? They were Christian, yet they carried out hundreds of racist hate crimes against innocent black people. And what about the Jewish terrorists organizations such as the Gush Emunim Underground, the Jewish Defense League, the Kach, and the Kahane Chai (designated as terrorist by Israel, the EU, and USA)?

[Vulgotha]

...your fighting a losing battle.

No matter how much you kick and scream, the Islamic community has earned the title they've been given.

Across the globe they've demonstrated violence, and disrupted societys. Any political cartoon featuring Mahummad has instant backlash (Violently, vocally or both) for instance.

Judiasm is not the problem in this century's global society. Its Islam.


They're religion may be hijacked, and out of control, lead by extremists. But many countries support their terrorist actions, and claim this is "What their religion is all about".

Continue to cite obscure and isolated incidents within the Christian culture and Jewish Community, but it will do you no good.

[Denier-of-Soup]

Give me one good reason why I shouldn't defend the peace loving Muslims who have done nothing to deserve such titles. I don't give a damn about the extremists; they'll get what they deserve sooner or later.

[sonyfan6]

The issue is Islamists (the academic term used to describe the extremists who claim to be acting in the name of Islam) and not Muslims. The growing stereotype that all Muslims are Islamists is an enormous problem as it helps promote the 'us vs them' mentality that helps Islamists recruit, especially in 'western' countries.

I unfortunately see the people generalize Muslims more often than not. It's a very serious issue. Recently I can only think of a couple instances recently on tv where the proper distinction has been given. The first was a news report on cnn where the reporter interviewed an Islamist 'cleric' in Brittain who spoke about (and hinted at being willing to use violence as a means to achieve ) making Islamist law the rule of the land. The interview then cut over to your everyday, average Muslim teenager that was walking down the street and the reporter asked whether he agreed with that goal. The Muslim teenage, just like any other teenager, of course said that he disagreed with it. He laughed and said this isn't the Taliban and then specifically referenced his preference for being able to wear any clothing he wants under Brittish law and not wanting to be forced to wear traditional Muslim garb. The second case was from this season of 24 where the fictional President Palmer disagreed with his cabinet members that wanted to round up American Muslims as a security measure. President Palmer vehmently disagreed and said that the American Muslim community was their best ally against terrorism.

The growing stereotype of all Muslims being Islamists is not the only reason why Islamists have been more successful in recruiting amongst the Muslim population than religious extremists from other religions in their respective communities. While I strongly disagree with the stereotypes that Grifer expressed in his post, he did bring up some correct, albit poorly stated, points regarding the barriers that Muslim immigrants face in assimilating into their new countries. Immigrants having a hard time fitting in is nothing new, however now-a-days it is being handled differently and there is a feeling among some groups that they will never be able to join their new society. This again, creates an 'us vs. them' mentality that makes it easier for Islamists to recruit new members.

[Grifer]

Grifer, you know that in their religion, rape is a major sin and that they would
get a severe punishment in their 'native' countries? I guess you guys don't
punish men severely in Europe for rape?

And when you say a fact like that, get a source...because 'muslims who rape women' are not
muslims at all...since they are going against the basics of their religion which is to respect women.
Here is one source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1372959/posts
Here is another from your place: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20535
And another, true tale of muslim girl in France who wanted to look like French (pretty disturbing): http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/60minutes/main617270.shtml
Yet another: http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62605.html 68% goddamned!"!!!!1

I don't know what Quran says, but what ever it is causing that - their tribal beliefs, teachings of wicked imam, whatever - multiculturalism is harming western AND muslim women alike. I don't know what on earth have you been reading to be brainwashed into that stupid "politically correct" multiculturalism crap, but as for your claim about they getting punished in their native countries... go learn something from Amnesty!
Let's not forget to mention circumcising of women, that is one of the most brutal & painful practices on earth. Of that I know that it's not even mentioned in Quran, but I know that Somali muslims in Europe send young girls to Africa to be circumcised anyway to avoid those nasty government officials. In Göteborg, Sweden, honorary mudrer of underaged muslim girl that got RAPED by other muslim and thus became "unpure" made headlines while ago. How ****ing sick **** is that?

Are you muslim Firefox? Can you fight statistics? Or should you be fighting multiculturalism? I don't blame muslims (although their savage tribal beliefs need update to 21th century ASAP), I blame governmental policies that make sick **** like that possible!

EDIT: to clarify my stance between muslims and islamists, let me make clear that multiculturalistic policies are major player in making regular muslims wee bit crazy religious nutjobs and thus muslim immigration would better be banned or governments need to seriously check their nannying stance. I know muslims in person, and quite frankly my unofficial godfather (Algerian-French muslim origin) agrees with me.

EDIT2: to further feed the flame, crazy stuff like I descriphed above happened among christians in times of inquisition, 500 years ago! there must be something fundamentally wrong in islam. I don't believe in cultural relativism. On the ither hand, I'm atheist and I view practices of american conservative christians - like chastety until marriage - with quite similar disgust. But that is nothing, NOTHING, compared to circumcising of women!!!

[shcndw]

Everyone shut you're mouths. This is a "Playstation3forums" not a debate over religion. Only way you can settle this is by a arm wrestle. Winner wins his debate, loser looses his debate.

[Vulgotha]

Everyone shut you're mouths. This is a "Playstation3forums" not a debate over religion. Only way you can settle this is by a arm wrestle. Winner wins his debate, loser looses his debate.



If this is the case, I can garuntee you i'll win.

[Janv1er]

Most French don't try and get along with foreigners, like the french and blacks or the french and arabs or the french and other french !! Damn French people !!!

[DINAMO788]

shcndw yes and this is the correct place to debate it, in the general-politics forums.


denier you should defend innocent people but i mean......i personally dont think that the muslim community and muslim nations are doing enough to try to prevent and stop islamists from taking power...certainly not everything they can be. on NPR today i heard the US was giving pakistan 80 million a month for their anti-terrorist efforts yet its been reported that many of the border patrols aren't doing there jobs very welll and easily letting taliban or w/e fundamentalist group through. we all know how iran supports what these groups are doing...even funding them, but when the cameras are on there is only a rebuttle to such claims.
i understand that non of the arab countries would really miss israel too much if it was destoryed..but it wont be so easily. so these terrorist groups wont be able to "solve the problem" they can just continue their terror and harm others.

also think of it this way, if not for the US, UK, israel and allies........do you think the muslims would take care of the terrorist/fundamentalist islamists themselves? i personally dont think so. even with all of our big help they dont seem to be doing much on their own.


well as far as im aware...there is also a very large black population in france. i mean we all saw thier world cup soccer team lol. ribery..zidane....and maybe one other guy were the only non-black players

[shcndw]

^^

Look at Arsenal lol, mostly black french players. ARSENAL, go on the gunnerz!!

[Janv1er]

Zidane is white????? :lol:
Only Barthez, Ribery and some other guy are the only whites in the team.
Even the French make fun of the team, even black people, they call it the French team of Zimbabwe and stuff like that.

[Denier-of-Soup]

denier you should defend innocent people but i mean......i personally dont think that the muslim community and muslim nations are doing enough to try to prevent and stop islamists from taking power...

You have no idea of how corrupt some Islamic governments actually are. I mean, there's nothing Islamic about the things they do. Take the Pakistani government for example, they're so rotten to the core that I don't even know where to begin. Why should they do anything to stop the terrorists? As long as they get their daily sup