Why is U.S. supporting Israel?

[Mr. Solanky]

I want to know what you people think of the United States backing up Israel with their war with the Palenstines. I don't have a clue. Is it because there is Oil, or is because the United States is mainly a Christian country?

[Axe&Hammer]

We support nations that are Democratic,and have a need for weapons.

[Knuckles126]

Because Isreal is considered in the eyes of many as a 'Holy Land' of such. Whoever makes war with Isreal will surely be destroyed...according to the Bible.

[Firefox]

Because Isreal is considered in the eyes of many as a 'Holy Land' of such. Whoever makes war with Isreal will surely be destroyed...according to the Bible.

Well these guys have a different opinion.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
and sublink- http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/scriptures/index.cfm

[resstealth]

simple, because they're not arab

[Axe&Hammer]

simple, because they're not arab
But the US supports and/or is allies with Arab nations

[Knuckles126]

Well these guys have a different opinion.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
and sublink- http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/scriptures/index.cfm
Thats nice...you seemed to have missed the part "according to the Bible".

[Firefox]

Whoops, sorry its just I thought I read torah. I don't know what went
through my mind... I guess I just figured the torah and bible are related so I posted it.

[Supaman²²³]

Lobby groups, lobby groups some more lobby groups!


Did i mention lobby groups?

[the jackle.2]

There is no oil in palestine as far as i no.i presume the reason they support them is because they are the only country in the region that are a democratic religous free goverment,and are also a good tactical friend to have incase of a war in the region,oh and the very powefull and rich jews who live in america and fund presidential elections,cant forget that one.

[Firefox]

There is no oil in palestine as far as i no.i presume the reason they support them is because they are the only country in the region that are a democratic religous free goverment,and are also a good tactical friend to have incase of a war in the region,oh and the very powefull and rich jews who live in america and fund presidential elections,cant forget that one.

I think you hit the bag on your last point.

[PersonofInterest]

Because Israel is the only democratic,nuclear regional power there, it would be wise of the US to ally with them, like the US is now allied with Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Jordan (I think?)

[Hezz]

There is more than 1 reason in my estimation.

1st, the land was thousands of years ago inhabited by the Jewish peoples before they were carried away into captivity by large war mongering civilizations. Babylonean. From that time afterwards the Jewish population of western Palestine (Israel) has been small and for the most part dominated by other political powers. Such as Rome for a very long time. And later by other Arab and European powers.

2. After seeing the holocaust of WW2 it was deemed necessary that Peoples of Jewish ancestry should have thier own nation. And that for the most part the Jewish races were the legitimate peoples to live in and control the land area known today as Israel.

3. Most peoples of America are Christian and in the bible God tells Abraham that this land (Isreal) is his inheritance for his posterity. The Jewish peoples are one of the main ancestral groups of Abraham.

Interestingly the Arabs also are ancestors of Abraham but through a different linage.

4. THe Jewish peoples of Isreal are generally Democratic, rational, smart and seek to promote ethnic acceptance (tolerance) within thier own country. They are a better ally than any other middle east country. For Americans to ally themselves strongly with other Arab countries which are not democratic and against Israel would be ethically and morally wrong. To often, many people don't understand that democratic freedom comes only with a sacrifice. Now if we as Americans can only survive our own corrupt leaders. Forms of democracy cannot easily function or survive under extremist or totalitarian governments, nor in places where intolerant religous belief systems abound, such as exist in many Arab countries. Even less than virtuous presidents are far better than criminal thug monarchs or local totalitarian tribe patriarchs.

5. The Bible fore tells of a great war after the Isrealites return to thier land in which the majority of the world will be again'st them but in the final hour God himself will deliver them and destroy thier enemies. (Note: this is not necessarily WW3 but may come after that). It also foretells that the world goverment after that time will be from Israel !!!. Basically the powerful U.N. and most of it's supporters will be destroyed because they will have sought to create a world government and thier own one world religion. Some powerful world leader will be considered the Anti-christ. Most likely Israel will resist the power of this powerful one world government and be the last to give up thier freedom of religion when most peoples of the world will have joined with the one world order and given up religous freedom in the name of world peace.

This does not mean that everything that Isreal does is right. But it does mean that God has decreed that they have a right to inherit the land of Israel.

And those nations that fight against Isreal in the last war will all be destroyed. Or at least thier governments and political power will be. Not necessarily all of the people.

6. There are many Jewish peoples in American and western Europe and for the most part they are looked upon as friends and with respect for thier accomplishments.

When the Jewish peoples started to collect in greater numbers in Israel after WW2 there began to be strife and eventually war with the Palestinians as Jewish populations continued to expand. And eventually something close to the modern day political boundries of Israel were formed. Initially, there was religious diversity in Palestine but most of the Christain and Jewish Palestianians have moved into Israel or elsewhere. So now the conflict is primarily between Democratic Jewish and Christians and a few Moslems in Israel and the Palestianians which are almost exclusively Moslem Arabs.

[Firefox]

I have to disagree with point number 5, the bible is not as detailed and
straight forward about the topic as you made it out to be.

[dc writer]

/\/\/\/\__ How did you come to that conclusion sir?

[DINAMO788]

ouch. sorry guys but someone had to make a thread like this and captain israel saw it.

im going to start offo slowly and say israel is not a crazy country filled with dangerous radical extremists who hate the US and the western world....by filled i mean they have more than any other country in terms of a realistic and present threat

[Fedos]

I have to disagree with point number 5, the bible is not as detailed and
straight forward about the topic as you made it out to be.

...You need to actually sit down and read the Bible for your own self and see what it says. Pretty much everything he had to say about point 5 is in there (one world government, one world religion, the whole world hating and despising the Jewish people, God himself coming to their rescue when all hope seems lost). You did say once that you had a Bible correct? I suggest just reading Revelation.

[OKlondon]

The reason why the US supports Israel is because Jews run America and so therefore use America to give Israel money. Also for the fact that during the Cold War America created Israel in 1948 to give the US influence in the Middle East which was primarly influenced by Russia.

Yes its the holy land, for all religions I m sure that America dont care.

America gives 1.8 trillion dollars per year to Israel.

[DINAMO788]

during the cold war american created israel in 1948......you dont see anything wrong with that statement?

and america isn't run by jews. the media and businesses maybe, the government is not at all. the president sees that israel is the only sane country in the ME and understands their plight

[RMoore]

Israel was a recognized country in 1948 by the UN..There is no palestine nor was there ever a Palestine actually...It's funny that the countries that have used the Palestinian cause are the same ones that have kicked them out for being a burden.

We support Israel because they are a democratic nation in a hotbed of Political turmoil.I would say they are at least a equal ally or close as the US and the UK are relationship wise. They also have a great military and have a capable force deterent(nukes) that makes them a natural ally for that reigon also.

[DINAMO788]

thank youuuuu......that a very well and concise post about how i feel as well.

[JordanL]

The reason?

Because Israel supports us reliably. That and Palestinians were invented in the 50s to demonize the Jews, but hey, facts are a footnote.

[adz1992]

simple

the more powerful country out of palistine and israel
the US dont like being on the losing side
neither does the uk
if a war breaks out that threatens the us and they declear war
you can be sure the uk will back up the us

and i think the us like the goverment set up in israel over palistine

or they'res a resource in israel they want


meny reasons
most of them to do with ecomony to be honest

[OKlondon]

during the cold war american created israel in 1948......you dont see anything wrong with that statement?

and america isn't run by jews. the media and businesses maybe, the government is not at all. the president sees that israel is the only sane country in the ME and understands their plight

:lol: watch a program called killing zone, its on youtube. After tell me if your sentence makes sense.

[Hezz]

Guys,

Thanks for all your posts. There are obviously many facets to the Israeli-Palistinian conflict. I have tried to stay away from the more unfriendly interpretations and conspiracy theories.

There have always been powerful Jewish families involved with high finance, banking and other media and industrial institutions. The fact that these groups influenced the US and UN to help them create an official Jewish nation in Palistine is common knowledge.

[RMoore]

:lol: watch a program called killing zone, its on youtube. After tell me if your sentence makes sense.

Well Youtube isn't exactly a good source for information.Try a local library.:)
There is a large Jewish Lobby in the USA,just like there is a large gun lobby,enviromental,and the list goes on.There isn't some secret Jewish org controlling the US thats for sure..

Personally,Israel should go ahead and give back parts of the West Bank and Golan to Syria in exchange for Peace.They really don't need the buffer.Syria isn't stupid and the IDF can contain the extremists.I would however keep building the the wall on the green line.

[OKlondon]

Well Youtube isn't exactly a good source for information.Try a local library.:)
There is a large Jewish Lobby in the USA,just like there is a large gun lobby,enviromental,and the list goes on.There isn't some secret Jewish org controlling the US thats for sure..

Personally,Israel should go ahead and give back parts of the West Bank and Golan to Syria in exchange for Peace.They really don't need the buffer.Syria isn't stupid and the IDF can contain the extremists.I would however keep building the the wall on the green line.

It was on television aswell, its a TV program done by british tv about the Gaza strip.

Jews run nearly every aspect of American life, from media to banks. Someone said that they run the government, where do you think the gov gets there money from?


Guys,

Thanks for all your posts. There are obviously many facets to the Israeli-Palistinian conflict. I have tried to stay away from the more unfriendly interpretations and conspiracy theories.

There have always been powerful Jewish families involved with high finance, banking and other media and industrial institutions. The fact that these groups influenced the US and UN to help them create an official Jewish nation in Palistine is common knowledge

Just read this post now I have to say well said, beat me to it.

[RMoore]

It was on television aswell, its a TV program done by british tv about the Gaza strip.

Jews run nearly every aspect of American life, from media to banks. Someone said that they run the government, where do you think the gov gets there money from?



Just read this post now I have to say well said, beat me to it.

Well I live here and I can tell you for a fact that Jews don't run nearly aspect of American life..That's absurd really. That's sound like something you hear on Iranian State TV.. They don't run the goverment either..Know how many Jewish political members there are?..very few...I can think of 2.
Like I said,there is a large political lobby.There are many. I wouldn't trust something on a tv show either..:eek:

[DINAMO788]

It was on television aswell, its a TV program done by british tv about the Gaza strip.

Jews run nearly every aspect of American life, from media to banks. Someone said that they run the government, where do you think the gov gets there money from?





i hope you dont drive drunk too. honestly how can you say that when you have no clue how things work here and have never experienced it first hand. what is said is something likely to come out of david duke, amendijad, or hitler's mouth. you should be ashamed of yourself.

the government gets their money from taxes and grants.....not from jews. get those stupid little conspiracies out of your head and wake up.

[Hezz]

Israel was a recognized country in 1948 by the UN..There is no palestine nor was there ever a Palestine actually...It's funny that the countries that have used the Palestinian cause are the same ones that have kicked them out for being a burden.

There is just so much truth to this. The Palistinians have never been an official country or nation. Only a loose collection of people that lived in this area. They were treated poorly by most all of the other Arab nations who considered them inferior. Probably because they were a mixture of Moslems, Jews, and Christians. And were considered impure.

[OKlondon]

i hope you dont drive drunk too. honestly how can you say that when you have no clue how things work here and have never experienced it first hand. what is said is something likely to come out of david duke, amendijad, or hitler's mouth. you should be ashamed of yourself.

the government gets their money from taxes and grants.....not from jews. get those stupid little conspiracies out of your head and wake up.

Do a little research and ask yourself why people think that Jews run the US, its becuase they do. Do a little research and find out the amount of money the US gives to Israel. Why do you think that is, because they are diplomatic country? :lol: Do you think that America gives a crap whether a country is diplomatic or not.

I think you're the one that needs to open your eyes, remove that biased view of yours and look at the truth. That Israel is far from perfect, like the majority of countries in the world, Jews really have no right to their own country and they have huge influential power over the US.

[SpaceMonkeyDave]

because they are like that
a little bit messed up in the head

[RMoore]

Do a little research and ask yourself why people think that Jews run the US, its becuase they do. Do a little research and find out the amount of money the US gives to Israel. Why do you think that is, because they are diplomatic country? :lol: Do you think that America gives a crap whether a country is diplomatic or not.

I think you're the one that needs to open your eyes, remove that biased view of yours and look at the truth. That Israel is far from perfect, like the majority of countries in the world, Jews really have no right to their own country and they have huge influential power over the US.


I suppose the Holocaust didn't happen either or Israel wasn't attacked on three seperate occassions by hostile Arab nations(and got their butts kicked everytime). Well it's your opinion,but it is unfortunate to see how uninformed people are about other countries. Oh and the UN says the Jewish Nation exists,so I guess that's good enough for the rest of the world..What do I know..I think the Brits should've moved out of Northern Ireland too..:)

[Hezz]

Jews run nearly every aspect of American life, from media to banks. Someone said that they run the government, where do you think the gov gets there money from?


Unfortunately, while there is some truth to this there is also gross exaggeration.

It is also unfortunate that people get most of thier information from the TV media because it is generally produced with more concern for a sensational story or conspiracy than the truth.

Also, the money comes from taxing the people who are a nation of workaholics and have a lot of natural resources.

Also, isn't it a bit hypocritical for a Brit to be critisizing the Jewish peoples for wanting a free Jewish nation. Sure people with wealth and in powerful positions tried to make this happen but it seems that thier motivations were more worthy than much of the English Imperialism for hundreds of years was. That Imperialism was mostly to exploit resources. The Jewish peoples after WW2 are just trying to maintain thier cultural identity and existance.

[DINAMO788]

listen you antisemetic pig, do you even live in the US? have you had any experience with such matters? have you actually dont any factual research anywhere other than youtube?

you have no credentials to make the claims you are making.d o i think the USA gives a crap about other countries, yes depending on the country. if you dont think so thats fine but dont you tell me im wrong without proof.

do not say jews have control over the country or i'm going to push to get you banned for libel. if you have srouces, share them, keep your twisted opinions to themselves. the jews deserve to have their own country more than anyone else and have suffered more than any other race in history.

[OKlondon]

I suppose the Holocaust didn't happen either or Israel wasn't attacked on three seperate occassions by hostile Arab nations(and got their butts kicked everytime). Well it's your opinion,but it is unfortunate to see how uninformed people are about other countries. Oh and the UN says the Jewish Nation exists,so I guess that's good enough for the rest of the world..What do I know..I think the Brits should've moved out of Northern Ireland too..:)

Israel was attacked on 3 seperate occassions!!!!! Wow 3 palenstinians die for 1 Israeli. Go and look at the amount of Lebonese people died last summer compared to Israeli casualties, dont think that Israel is most innocent country in the world. Yeah the UN says that Israel exists didnt they also tell the US not to go into Iraq. Do agree with you on Northern Ireland though :)

Unfortunately, while there is some truth to this there is also gross exaggeration.

It is also unfortunate that people get most of thier information from the TV media because it is generally produced with more concern for a sensational story or conspiracy than the truth.

I dont watch TV, BBC, etc show you only certain aspects of what is going on. Ofcourse every American knows the truth about what their army gets up to.


listen you antisemetic pig, do you even live in the US? have you had any experience with such matters? have you actually dont any factual research anywhere other than youtube?

you have no credentials to make the claims you are making.d o i think the USA gives a crap about other countries, yes depending on the country. if you dont think so thats fine but dont you tell me im wrong without proof.

do not say jews have control over the country or i'm going to push to get you banned for libel. if you have srouces, share them, keep your twisted opinions to themselves. the jews deserve to have their own country more than anyone else and have suffered more than any other race in history.

Antisemetic? What bad thing did I say against Jewish people. NO I dont live in the US, thats the point. I dont hate Jewish people, dont hate anyone. I m sorry if I offended you but what really annoys me is that people like you sit at home watch CNN and always think you are in the right. You ever wonder why so many people hate America because you are so blind to what goes on in the world and only see what you want to see. You said it yourself, depending on the country, if its any benefit to America. Where is America when people are dying in Africa?

Secondly you want me to get banned, when you are the one calling people names. Also you are saying that Jews should have their country because of what they have suffered. What the holocaust, the slavery in Egypt, because of this they should have their own country. Chechia should have their own country.

[Axe&Hammer]

Israel:

"Never before has the invader been given more sympathy than the conquered"


Israel was created by the Britsh,and supported by the west,its current form cannot be blamed on one nation but rather a collective. The jewish people do not control America,they run the popular media(prime time TV),sell diamonds,and are doctors. Israel is one the worst nations on earth,I hope that one day they reap what they have sown for so many years.

[DINAMO788]

have you seen the south park with the with 9/11 conspiracy. im like kyle and your like cartman. your all into the conspiracy thing were i not as quick to jump to conclusion. keep in mind in no fool and know full well, more than you of my own governments corruption so im not blind at all. i just hate how people always need to formulate some conspiracy about everything when there is usually a more simple answer. jews dont run america, thats only something that the KKK and mel gibson want you to think.


also stop looking at causlities to point fault at a nation. its not israel's fault that they are militarily superior but it is the terrorists group's fault that they entice the killing of their own people so the media can blow it out of proportion and make israel look bad.

[OKlondon]

have you seen the south park with the with 9/11 conspiracy. im like kyle and your like cartman. your all into the conspiracy thing were i not as quick to jump to conclusion. keep in mind in no fool and know full well, more than you of my own governments corruption so im not blind at all. i just hate how people always need to formulate some conspiracy about everything when there is usually a more simple answer. jews dont run america, thats only something that the KKK and mel gibson want you to think.


also stop looking at causlities to point fault at a nation. its not israel's fault that they are militarily superior but it is the terrorists group's fault that they entice the killing of their own people so the media can blow it out of proportion and make israel look bad.

Wait wait, firstly :lol: I m not Cartman, secondly I m not saying that Jews run America, I m saying they are very influencial. There is more to why there is strong US-Israeli relationship than Jewish influence in America, such as Israel gives the US a platform to stand on in the Middle East, America is pro-Zionist.

I m not talking about some conspiracy, I m not talking about 9/11, etc. I m talking about the US and Israel.

Here is a website that shows the aid to Israel from the US:

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Why do you think that Israel recieve more money from the US than anyother country.

[DINAMO788]

because the vast majority are other countries and stil somewhat antisemetic(believe it or not) and also because they have been made too look like a bully showing all those poor poor arabs being killed by big bad israel

[Sventax]

Lobby groups, lobby groups some more lobby groups!


Did i mention lobby groups?

Yep......and money made them strong...
plus The US have military power without getting "directly" involved.

A good strategist puts army's across a field(earth) to quickly respond to what might be a treat to the US...since there is barely no treat I can't see the significance of having military across the globe...(except for the chines )

It is a small country ..... with loads of smart people...all of the people in the middle-east are smart people... I don't know why....

[OKlondon]

because the vast majority are other countries and stil somewhat antisemetic(believe it or not) and also because they have been made too look like a bully showing all those poor poor arabs being killed by big bad israel

Thats because they are dying from Israel its not like they can do anything about, Israeli has got all those guns from America, can you blame them for being antisemetic.

BTW I m talking about the whole world not just the Middle East, Israel recieves all that money when there are countries that are poorer and need more help, they recieve nothing. Does that seem strange to you.

[DINAMO788]

israel does not attack un provoked. all the major wars.....especially in recent years were nto sparked by israel randomly attackin arab countries

[Hezz]

Thats because they are dying from Israel its not like they can do anything about, Israeli has got all those guns from America, can you blame them for being antisemetic.

BTW I m talking about the whole world not just the Middle East, Israel recieves all that money when there are countries that are poorer and need more help, they recieve nothing. Does that seem strange to you.


Not really. Maybe it's not the most right but even nations act in self interest. Israel is seen as a good ally and a good investment in the middle east.

And time has shown that this is true. Israel has the highest economic productivity of any nation is the world from studies that I have seen.

Of course this does not mean that aiding only the strong is right. But continually giving handouts to the poor who don't do anything to help themselves is also not right either.

[OKlondon]

israel does not attack un provoked. all the major wars.....especially in recent years were nto sparked by israel randomly attackin arab countries

Everyday people are dying everyday Israel bombs the Gaza strip.

Not really. Maybe it's not the most right but even nations act in self interest. Israel is seen as a good ally and a good investment in the middle east.

And time has shown that this is true. Israel has the highest economic productivity of any nation is the world from studies that I have seen.

Of course this does not mean that aiding only the strong is right. But continually giving handouts to the poor who don't do anything to help themselves is also not right either.

Highest economix productivity.. do you have any sources?

[JordanL]

There have always been powerful Jewish families involved with high finance, banking and other media and industrial institutions. The fact that these groups influenced the US and UN to help them create an official Jewish nation in Palistine is common knowledge.

The anti-semetic bull**** in this thread is disturbing. So you are getting a warning.

When you make these remarks, back them up with verifiable facts or don't post them.

Put up or shut up. What has been going on in this thread amounts to little more than racism, and it will not be tollerated. If this does not stop immediately, you will all be reported, and this thread will be closed.

[OKlondon]

The anti-semetic bull**** in this thread is disturbing. So you are getting a warning.

When you make these remarks, back them up with verifiable facts or don't post them.

Put up or shut up. What has been going on in this thread amounts to little more than racism, and it will not be tollerated. If this does not stop immediately, you will all be reported, and this thread will be closed.

:lol: No offense but do you know the meaning of racism, there is nothing racist about the comment you quoted. Its not anti-semetic aswell if you didnt realise.

[JordanL]

:lol: No offense but do you know the meaning of racism, there is nothing racist about the comment you quoted. Its not anti-semetic aswell if you didnt realise.

If you think I was referring to only the post I quoted then you need to reread my post again.

[Hezz]

Jordan L,

I have studied this area from time to time as I have found it an interesting area of study with lots of complexity. I do not consider myself a scholar that needs to quote you all references.

If you find the statement I made Anti-****tic I am sorry. It was not intended as such.

But I thought you gave up the moderation of this thread? Have you now changed your mind?

Granted this thread could be a fire cracker of opinion. But you need to understand not every statement that is not backed up with links to "facts" is somehow racist.

[JordanL]

Hezz, your statement was simply unfounded, not anti-semetic. I just quoted yours.

But the point stands, due to the total lack of quality in this thread, sources must be cited or it's getting a lock.

[Supaman²²³]

Jordan, i would like to know what your opinion on this matter is?

So, why do you think that Israel receives massive support from the US?

[JordanL]

Jordan, i would like to know what your opinion on this matter is?

So, why do you think that Israel receives massive support from the US?

Because Israel hasn't tried to screw us, because they are a democracy, and because almost the entire rest of the Middle East has neither of those two bullet points.

I think the fact that "Palestine" is a fictional account invented in the 50s is just icing on the cake.

[Hezz]

Hezz, your statement was simply unfounded, not anti-semetic. I just quoted yours.

But the point stands, due to the total lack of quality in this thread, sources must be cited or it's getting a lock.


The thread does not lack quality only supporting documentation. Well most of it would be in books I have read or magazine articles long since forgotten.

So if this is the standard you are going to apply to this thread then I'm afraid the thread will probably loose any and all strongly worded opinions.

But I guess that will make it easier for you to moderate then.

Perhaps if this is your goal then you need a preamble at the beginning stating the exact requirements which posts have to meet for this thread.

[JordanL]

The thread does not lack quality only supporting documentation. Well most of it would be in books I have read or magazine articles long since forgotten.

So if this is the standard you are going to apply to this thread then I'm afraid the thread will probably loose any and all strongly worded opinions.

But I guess that will make it easier for you to moderate then.

Perhaps if this is your goal then you need a preamble at the beginning stating the exact requirements which posts have to meet for this thread.

My goal is not to make it easy to moderate. I barely can moderate anymore, and I all but gave that up. I even made a post about it.

What I am doing is putting my foot down. Too many people in this thread are making veiled attacks on a race without any supporting evidence at all. It's the quantity of crap that is causing this.

In my experience, when someone is posting stuff that is either false and offensive or skewed and offensive, it's far better to set the bar for facts too high for them to possibly continue than to directly discipline anyone.

[Hezz]

I think the fact that "Palestine" is a fictional account invented in the 50s is just icing on the cake.

Jordan,

Is it possible to elaborate on this statement. I find it obscure in meaning in the extreme?

[Supaman²²³]

Because Israel hasn't tried to screw us, because they are a democracy, and because almost the entire rest of the Middle East has neither of those two bullet points.

I think the fact that "Palestine" is a fictional account invented in the 50s is just icing on the cake.

As for the first point i would like to bring up how America's association with Israel has made it target by terrorists world wide. While this is not really Israels fault it still "screws over" the people who are the victims of the terrorist attacks.

And too avoid writing a book, we should leave the Palestine issue out of this.

[Vulgotha]

I'm with JordanL and Dinamo788..... There is nothing wrong with us being aligned with Israel, and they've been quite good to us.... Whereas the other Arab countries (with a collective IQ that barely reaches double digits) Have always been antagonistic, brutal and just plain violent.

If you read the Bible, it does spell out very specifically what will happen in the end of days. I'm a christian, I believe in it. If nothing else, all this stuff in the middle east is convincing more people that perhaps Revelation is a bit closer then some originally thought. (though some have always said IT WILL BE THIS DECADE!!!...riiight.)


I think we can all agree that "arabs" are capable of being "civilized". -JordanL


And sure, there are Jews in very high and powerful places, Hitler himself even felt threatened by this pre-Holocaust (and was one of the reasons he began to oust them). True, they're in the media, The Seinfeld cast was all jewish, just for an illustration. So is Mel Brooks etc.

Do I think they "Run" the country? NO...haha..NO. But there are always conspiracy guys who says so. And who say that the holocaust was an elaborate and lucrative jewish hoax........ Some people need to get their brain examined for believing that.
To Supaman, the reason we're targeted is 3 reasons:

1. We're a Christian nation, no matter what the Supreme court says.
2. Israel is a Judaistic nation, and as history has quite clearly shown, the other nations (Islamic or otherwise) just plain hate them.
3. We formed Israel back in early first half of the 20th century. They kind of got erked with that.

[Supaman²²³]

I have got a prize for whoever can tell me who the second most supported nation under the US is?

[Vulgotha]

...France?... We all know who the french national guard is... the US Marines!:D

Britain perhaps.

[Supaman²²³]

I'm with JordanL and Dinamo788..... There is nothing wrong with us being aligned with Israel, and they've been quite good to us.... Whereas the other Arab countries (with a collective IQ that barely reaches double digits) Have always been antagonistic, brutal and just plain violent.

If you read the Bible, it does spell out very specifically what will happen in the end of days. I'm a christian, I believe in it. If nothing else, all this stuff in the middle east is convincing more people that perhaps Revelation is a bit closer then some originally thought. (though some have always said IT WILL BE THIS DECADE!!!...riiight.)


Yes, it is a democratic nation. It isn't radically Islamic, and thusly not quite as prone to having suicide bombers or go out and commit mass genocide. Civlized, I think is the word im looking for.


And sure, there are Jews in very high and powerful places, Hitler himself even felt threatened by this pre-Holocaust (and was one of the reasons he began to oust them). True, they're in the media, The Seinfeld cast was all jewish, just for an illustration. So is Mel Brooks etc.

Do I think they "Run" the country? NO...haha..NO. But there are always conspiracy guys who says so. And who say that the holocaust was an elaborate and lucrative jewish hoax........ Some people need to get their brain examined for believing that.
To Supaman, the reason we're targeted is 3 reasons:

1. We're a Christian nation, no matter what the Supreme court says.
2. Israel is a Judaistic nation, and as history has quite clearly shown, the other nations (Islamic or otherwise) just plain hate them.
3. We formed Israel back in early first half of the 20th century. They kind of got erked with that.

@ the Bolded parts

I think that is just as racist and unproven as any of the other posts that were against Israel and should receive the same treatment.

@ the blue parts

More or less i agree.

[Supaman²²³]

...France?... We all know who the french national guard is... the US Marines!:D

Britain perhaps.

Its actually Egypt!

Which happens to be an Islamic country, go figure eh?

[Vulgotha]

@ the Bolded parts

I think that is just as racist and unproven as any of the other posts that were against Israel and should receive the same treatment.

@ the blue parts

More or less i agree.


The truth hurts, History has proven what I said up above to be correct. (Bolded).

As for making fun of their IQ's, that was a little jest, had nothing to do exactly with their race, just their countries. If I said "All Palestinians are idiots" thats racism. I singled out a particular group and called them stupid just because they're a certain race.

Basically I have innumeral facts to back up what i've said just in the past 2 years, you really can't deny it. Whens the last time you heard of a Jewish suicide bomber? And if you have, compared to the amount of Islamic suicide bombers?

(Historically) what has been the demeanor of the surrounding countries to Israel? Hostile, is what you should say.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel obligated to apologize for what I've said.

did the SDF Commander just double post?

[JordanL]

Jordan,

Is it possible to elaborate on this statement. I find it obscure in meaning in the extreme?

Certainly. As I'm asking everyone else to provide sources, I'll definitely hit my own bar.

Although this is a somewhat influenced source, (in favor of the Arab Palestinians), we can find some interesting things from this source.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

Among them is that for the most part Palestine has referred throughout history to a geographic area, not a nation or a people. The "Palestinians" were simply the Arabs which had been living there, with the Jews I might add, for a long time.

The claim that all Palestinians are Arab is catagorically false, as it is not a nation or ethnicity, it is a location. In fact, the Jewish population of Israel is as much Palestinian. Instead, we find that after the Arab invasion of the late 40s following the partitioning of Israel by the UN, the term Palestinian was coined to undermine the legitimacy of Israeli sovereignty.

It's akin to illegal immigrants in California bombing shopping malls and setting up pseudo governments demanding independence from the US or return to Mexico.

[Supaman²²³]

The truth hurts, History has proven what I said up above to be correct. (Bolded).

As for making fun of their IQ's, that was a little jest, had nothing to do exactly with their race, just their countries. If I said "All Palestinians are idiots" thats racism. I singled out a particular group and called them stupid just because they're a certain race.

Basically I have innumeral facts to back up what i've said just in the past 2 years, you really can't deny it. Whens the last time you heard of a Jewish suicide bomber? And if you have, compared to the amount of Islamic suicide bombers?

(Historically) what has been the demeanor of the surrounding countries to Israel? Hostile, is what you should say.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel obligated to apologize for what I've said.

did the SDF Commander just double post?

Using that logic I could say many anti-semitic statements like that Jewish people are all greedy, But i will not lower myself to that level.

[Vulgotha]

Using that logic I could say many anti-semitic statements like that Jewish people are all greedy, But i will not lower myself to that level.


No, history has not proven that statemen to be correct. That kind of logic is.. Well its not logic at all. Reflects poorly on you.

History has shown that Israels neighbors hate them, wage war on them, and commit atrocities towards them. People hate Israel. Now I beseech you, attempt to make a case for your so called "logic", All jews are g reedy....I honestly don't see the connect to what I said at all, but kudos for trying.

Again, what I said was me basically calling a certain region's actions to be dumb. Not necessarily their people or their race. That should have been made abundantly clear by me.

Its like me saying, Germanys actions were monstrous during WWII. Are all germans monstrous,heartless and cruel? NO. They're very sophisticated and intelligent people. Geniuses at engineering.

[Sventax]

I don't get this, it was Israel who attack Palestina and took their land...I don't care what the Bible says... If your a civil country u don't base your actions out of old books. But u use your intelligent. I can't see the intelligent attacking a country because the bible says it's just.

Ever since it has been a troublesome region (I have forgotten the past wars , but I have not forgotten the war that started in the late 40's when u supposed to be civilized.
THe Western nation was always against the arabs....while they did nothing...When did you ever see the arabs attacking first??
It was always the US and Israelites ATTACKING others.....
How come th US in a decade was unable to kill 6 million people, while in the WWII 6 mil. jews were killed.....I find that hard to believe..there still is no prove of that....I know that jews were killed because they were Jews, but still I can't accept that 6 million were killed..
These info comes from the Jews....and from nobody else.

The arabs were mathematical wizards hundreds of years ago......they can't be stupid....
The Jews got rich by accident...when the Germans learned them to work with diamonds , soon after that they took over every thing and they got rich from there on.......keeping trade in the family and only rely on other jews...that was there strength.

In the (big)war more then 10 years ago... they imported black jews from Ethiopia and used them as foot soldiers before the better trained white Jews came into action.....this I still can't understand.

America needs levridge Israel provided that...the bound became stronger as the Jews (80's ) were welcome in the US and they brought there Billions of dollar to the US.....The US is Israel and Israel is the US....
there bound is hard to break.
they have strong economical ties.....and other ties
Why do you have to see something Jewish in every movie and tv-series.
There aren't many Jews on this planet..... U see??
The US needed money and smart people....

[RMoore]

Thanks to all who contributed but I was trying to have a discussion back and forth,but I dont want to get warned or threatened with warning for anything..So I'm out.

[sonyfan6]

I usually stay out of this subforum...mostly because a lot of the ignorance pisses me off. I used to get involved when these discussions were on general chit chat and not the subforum. At this point I figure that everyone on the politics subforum wants to talk about politics. I don't. I'm here for the ps3. However, since the main page shows the last post including subforums every now and again I time it just right and see a topic that despite knowing the headache it will cause, I look at it. This is one of those times.

Now, since I'm not trying to broaden this discussion I'll just stick to the points already brought up.

Okay, first off the jewish media conspiracy. This was created by Hitler because Hitler was smart. Evil as all hell but smart. He knew that if he could get people to believe that Jews controlled the media that anything good said about Jews publically would automatically be considered a lie. Likewise, anything bad said about Jews must not only be true but the truth must be much worse. So to respond to something earlier...yes repeating Hitler's propaganda about Jews is antisemetic.

Second, Israeli's origin. People have very misinformed concepts of the creation of Israel. You can't talk about the creation of Israel without mentioning WWII because the two are forever linked. The link is actually much more direct than the one that the Iranian government wants you to believe. It's got nothing to do with Western nations (influenced by Jews or otherwise) feeling sorry for Jews being killed in Europe so giving them a home in the Middle East. This is a misconception, largely spread to support claims of illegitimacy.

No, the real cause and effect for the creation of Israel run much deeper and hit something that most of you probably didn't learn in school. Most history books ignore or only lightly mention the Middle East. This is unfortunate.

Let's start with the Ottoman Empire. Following World War I the Ottoman Empire was partitioned. The partitioning was done with little regard for the people that lived there (our politicians still barely know the difference between Shia and Sunni for example). This in effect created the modern countries that we are familar with today and many of the larger internal issues. Included in this were issues along the sectarian problems of Iraq that we are all familar with due to current events. Also included were the issue of Jewish, Druze and Sunni Muslim population in the region that is now Israel. All three of these groups had been living in this region under the Ottoman empire for over a thousand years. The Sunni were the most populace but the Jewish people were a close second. In fact there were many parts of the country where Jews outnumbered the Sunni.

In this area a man named Haj Amin al-Husseini managed to use political means to become the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. This Grand Mufti, even though he had no formal holy training became the religious and political leader. Much of modern radical Islam teachings can be traced back to him. He also greatly admired Hitler and adopted much of Hitler's strategies for his own. He began to increase tensions and order violence against the Jews. Later he formally allied with Hitler, raising an army for him and carrying out his own 'final solution' locally. In 1941 he actually traveled to Germany to meet with Hitler, of which there is plenty of recorded transcripts and even photographic evidence for the doubters out there. Most importantly, he was responsible for recruiting 20,000 Muslim SS volunteers to travel the region exterminating Jews as far as Hungary and Croatia.

Following WWII the Jews realized that something had to be done. For thousands of years they had existed as refugees, small, often hated communities in other people's countries. Knowing that this had almost led to the destruction of their people they recognized that they had to change. Two factions broke out, the communists and the zionists. The zionists said that it was the Jewish refugee problem which made hatred so easy for so many people. That for antisemitism to stop, Jews needed a country of their own so they could have a political voice among the world. However, they did not want a theocracy. These were Jews from democratic countries with democratic ideals. They quickly realized what they needed was a Jewish democracy and that the only way a Jewish democracy could exist was with a Jewish majority. There was only one place in the entire world where Jews had a majority and that was in the place that is now known as Israel.

Rather than doing what so many others had done in the past and conquering a land for themselves, the Jews reached out, using whatever influence they had to find a political solution. They were ultimately successful and the UN partition plan was created. The previously partitioned pice of the Ottoman Empire known as Palestine would be repartitioned into two autonamous governments, each controlling the land where they were the majority. However, because these regions did not have continuous borders it would remain one country but with two states. Jerusalem, because of its importance to so many different peoples, would become an international city.

On paper the plan was brilliant but what followed certainly made the Grand Mufti smile. Instead of accepting that the Jews should be allowed self rule the neighboring Muslims rose up and attacked the Jews. The Jewish people fought back, defending themselves. The end result of the war, was that Israel became a country with continuous borders (this included losing some territory that was theirs under the partition plan and gaining other territory). The large parts of the country that had been intended for Muslim self rule were annexed by Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. All the Jews in these regions, including Jerusalem, were kicked out. These were people that had lived their for thousands of years. In addition, the neighboring countries also kicked the Jews out of their lands. All told 800,000 Jews were exiled. This number is often ignored by the very people that tout Jews kicking Muslims out of Israel as a reason for non-legitimacy.

So that just about wraps up point two. Israel is a legitimate country. The Palestinians were 'conquered' (aka. willingly annexed) by their neighbors in 1948. Later, during the 7 day war Israel was attacked again. Once again they emerged victorious and now controlled additional territory in the Sinai, Gaza Strip, West Bank and Golan Heights. The UN declared a land for peace deal. Basically, any of Israel's neighbors could sign a peace agreement formally recognizing the country and get their land back. Two of Israel's neighbors did this: Jordan and Egypt. Both treaties have been enormously successful with no violence.

However, there was a large problem. Jordan didn't want the West Bank back. There had been a plot to overthrow the King of Jordan and in response Jordan had forcifully removed portions of its own population in an extremely violent manner. The Muslims living in the West Bank belonged to that faction. Jordan didn't want them back. Truthfully, they didn't want to join Jordan either. They wanted to be a part of Syria. Egypt had a similar issue and took back the Sinai but not the Gaza Strip leading to the refugee problem of today...but not quite.

Back then terrorism wasn't so common. The Gaza Strip and West Bank were peaceful entities. You could freely walk between them and Israel. An Israeli could go visit a market in Gaza, for example, and not have any problems. Likewise, many people from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip had jobs and worked in Israel.

Unlike the Jews that wanted self determination following WWII, the Palestinian Authority did not use peaceful, political means. It adopted a policy of violence (going into the why would be off-topic and I've spelled it out before on these forums). Suicide bombings became more and more common. This of course caused a crackdown on the territories to prevent bombers from entering Israel and killing Israeli citizens. In turn this destroyed the economy in the territories because workers could no longer travel to their jobs in Israel. Now you'll hear from people that the violence is in response to the military occupation but historically that is not true.

Ultimately, this concludes the knowledge necessary to understand why the US supports Israel.

1) It's in the US interests. They have strong economic and military ties which the US considers important. (Not discussed above, but it is the number one reason).

2) There is a powerful pro-Israel lobby in the US. (Also not discussed above)

3) More to the point of the thread the moral reason the US supports Israel is because they'd rather side with a country protecting itself than countries initiating hostilities. There is, simply no way, when one looks at the facts, that Israel is the aggressor. Only the shallowest arguments, which are based less in fact and more in propaganda, show Israel as an aggressor. History shows a very different story. Israel did not conquer the Palestinians. The Jews gained the right of self government through peaceful channels. The Muslims of the area were also meant to have the same right but they were willingly conquered by their Muslim neighbors. They never attempted to gain self government again until after they failed a second attempt to wipe out Israel and lost during the 7 day war. Only then did they attempt to create a Palestinian government.


Okay, so that's for why the US supports Israel and incidently why you should to. Now, since I don't like making arguments completely one sided and also ignoring current political complications I'll take this a step further.

Current considerations
Israel needs to make peace with its neighbors soon because the Palestinian situation is getting worse and constantly breeding fresh wounds. Palestinians have one trump card to play in negotiations: the right of return. The Palestinian leadership knows that it will never get this. Basically the population of Israel is 7 million with 1.5 million Muslims. If a million Muslims were allowed to become full Israeli citizens they would control 1/3rd of the vote. In a generation they would be more numerious than the Jews and it would no longer be a Jewish majority. This is well known. This is why it becomes the final bargaining chip. In the end, the right to return will be given up in exchange for some large concessions from Israel. This will include a certain percentage of the total land in the country, economic incentives (read money) and a formal apology for 'stealing their land.' Pretty much everyone that studies the region knows that this is where things will end up, the question is how to get there.

Israel did something incredibly stupid a few years back. They unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip. President Abbas had been elected with an overwhelming majority of Palestinian votes. Negotiations would have been possible. Had Israel negotiated and shown the Palestinian people that peaceful negotiation could be successful it would have weakened the extremists. In addition it would strengthen Abbas who would have successfully negotiated independence for the Gaza Strip and enormous achievement. Instead Israel acted alone, which had the opposite result. Abbas was marginalized and the extremists were able to claim that it was their terrorist activities which got results. Between this and corruption the extremist group Hamas came to power. Hamas refuses to deal with Israel and will not recognize previous agreements. This is a no starter for any type of negotiations. No country in the world can negotiate with a group that refuses to acknowledge previous accords.

Right now the Palestinian territories are in bad shape and unable to come to a ruling consensus. There is one man who can bridge the gap and unite the Palestinians. Poll data shows that if he were a candidate he would win an election with an overwhelming majority of votes from all sides of the Palestinian spectrum. He's a moderate, currently in an Israeli jail, that is willing to negotiate with Israel. Israel will undoubtably release him in the next prisoner release deal they make. This will probably be timed with Palestinian elections so he can essentially get out of jail and immediately use the momentum from that to win the elections and restart the peace process. Syria and Lebanon will both enter treaties shortly after thus ending, what will be a nearly 70 year crisis.

This will also have additional secondary effects throughout the region. Many of the extremists, even the ones completely unconnected with the Palestinians, use the Palestinians to garner support. The majority of Muslims in the Middle East do not support terrorism, but they are sympathetic to the cause of the Palestinians. Have you wondered why the extremists funnel money into the territories for weapons and to pay the families of suicide bombers and yet there's no money for a sewer system? The worse off the Palestinians are the better it is for these extremist groups that use them to garner popular support. Making peace will end this practice and will substantially weaken Muslim extremists across the world.

...and hopefully that puts this conversation onto a more positive track.

[Vulgotha]

I usually stay out of this subforum...mostly because a lot of the ignorance pisses me off. I used to get involved when these discussions were on general chit chat and not the subforum. At this point I figure that everyone on the politics subforum wants to talk about politics. I don't. I'm here for the ps3. However, since the main page shows the last post including subforums every now and again I time it just right and see a topic that despite knowing the headache it will cause, I look at it. This is one of those times.

Now, since I'm not trying to broaden this discussion I'll just stick to the points already brought up.

Okay, first off the jewish media conspiracy. This was created by Hitler because Hitler was smart. Evil as all hell but smart. He knew that if he could get people to believe that Jews controlled the media that anything good said about Jews publically would automatically be considered a lie. Likewise, anything bad said about Jews must not only be true but the truth must be much worse. So to respond to something earlier...yes repeating Hitler's propaganda about Jews is antisemetic.

Second, Israeli's origin. People have very misinformed concepts of the creation of Israel. You can't talk about the creation of Israel without mentioning WWII because the two are forever linked. The link is actually much more direct than the one that the Iranian government wants you to believe. It's got nothing to do with Western nations (influenced by Jews or otherwise) feeling sorry for Jews being killed in Europe so giving them a home in the Middle East. This is a misconception, largely spread to support claims of illegitimacy.

No, the real cause and effect for the creation of Israel run much deeper and hit something that most of you probably didn't learn in school. Most history books ignore or only lightly mention the Middle East. This is unfortunate.

Let's start with the Ottoman Empire. Following World War I the Ottoman Empire was partitioned. The partitioning was done with little regard for the people that lived there (our politicians still barely know the difference between Shia and Sunni for example). This in effect created the modern countries that we are familar with today and many of the larger internal issues. Included in this were issues along the sectarian problems of Iraq that we are all familar with due to current events. Also included were the issue of Jewish, Druze and Sunni Muslim population in the region that is now Israel. All three of these groups had been living in this region under the Ottoman empire for over a thousand years. The Sunni were the most populace but the Jewish people were a close second. In fact there were many parts of the country where Jews outnumbered the Sunni.

In this area a man named Haj Amin al-Husseini managed to use political means to become the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. This Grand Mufti, even though he had no formal holy training became the religious and political leader. Much of modern radical Islam teachings can be traced back to him. He also greatly admired Hitler and adopted much of Hitler's strategies for his own. He began to increase tensions and order violence against the Jews. Later he formally allied with Hitler, raising an army for him and carrying out his own 'final solution' locally. In 1941 he actually traveled to Germany to meet with Hitler, of which there is plenty of recorded transcripts and even photographic evidence for the doubters out there. Most importantly, he was responsible for recruiting 20,000 Muslim SS volunteers to travel the region exterminating Jews as far as Hungary and Croatia.

Following WWII the Jews realized that something had to be done. For thousands of years they had existed as refugees, small, often hated communities in other people's countries. Knowing that this had almost led to the destruction of their people they recognized that they had to change. Two factions broke out, the communists and the zionists. The zionists said that it was the Jewish refugee problem which made hatred so easy for so many people. That for antisemitism to stop, Jews needed a country of their own so they could have a political voice among the world. However, they did not want a theocracy. These were Jews from democratic countries with democratic ideals. They quickly realized what they needed was a Jewish democracy and that the only way a Jewish democracy could exist was with a Jewish majority. There was only one place in the entire world where Jews had a majority and that was in the place that is now known as Israel.

Rather than doing what so many others had done in the past and conquering a land for themselves, the Jews reached out, using whatever influence they had to find a political solution. They were ultimately successful and the UN partition plan was created. The previously partitioned pice of the Ottoman Empire known as Palestine would be repartitioned into two autonamous governments, each controlling the land where they were the majority. However, because these regions did not have continuous borders it would remain one country but with two states. Jerusalem, because of its importance to so many different peoples, would become an international city.

On paper the plan was brilliant but what followed certainly made the Grand Mufti smile. Instead of accepting that the Jews should be allowed self rule the neighboring Muslims rose up and attacked the Jews. The Jewish people fought back, defending themselves. The end result of the war, was that Israel became a country with continuous borders (this included losing some territory that was theirs under the partition plan and gaining other territory). The large parts of the country that had been intended for Muslim self rule were annexed by Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. All the Jews in these regions, including Jerusalem, were kicked out. These were people that had lived their for thousands of years. In addition, the neighboring countries also kicked the Jews out of their lands. All told 800,000 Jews were exiled. This number is often ignored by the very people that tout Jews kicking Muslims out of Israel as a reason for non-legitimacy.

So that just about wraps up point two. Israel is a legitimate country. The Palestinians were 'conquered' (aka. willingly annexed) by their neighbors in 1948. Later, during the 7 day war Israel was attacked again. Once again they emerged victorious and now controlled additional territory in the Sinai, Gaza Strip, West Bank and Golan Heights. The UN declared a land for peace deal. Basically, any of Israel's neighbors could sign a peace agreement formally recognizing the country and get their land back. Two of Israel's neighbors did this: Jordan and Egypt. Both treaties have been enormously successful with no violence.

However, there was a large problem. Jordan didn't want the West Bank back. There had been a plot to overthrow the King of Jordan and in response Jordan had forcifully removed portions of its own population in an extremely violent manner. The Muslims living in the West Bank belonged to that faction. Jordan didn't want them back. Truthfully, they didn't want to join Jordan either. They wanted to be a part of Syria. Egypt had a similar issue and took back the Sinai but not the Gaza Strip leading to the refugee problem of today...but not quite.

Back then terrorism wasn't so common. The Gaza Strip and West Bank were peaceful entities. You could freely walk between them and Israel. An Israeli could go visit a market in Gaza, for example, and not have any problems. Likewise, many people from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip had jobs and worked in Israel.

Unlike the Jews that wanted self determination following WWII, the Palestinian Authority did not use peaceful, political means. It adopted a policy of violence (going into the why would be off-topic and I've spelled it out before on these forums). Suicide bombings became more and more common. This of course caused a crackdown on the territories to prevent bombers from entering Israel and killing Israeli citizens. In turn this destroyed the economy in the territories because workers could no longer travel to their jobs in Israel. Now you'll hear from people that the violence is in response to the military occupation but historically that is not true.

Ultimately, this concludes the knowledge necessary to understand why the US supports Israel.

1) It's in the US interests. They have strong economic and military ties which the US considers important. (Not discussed above, but it is the number one reason).

2) There is a powerful pro-Israel lobby in the US. (Also not discussed above)

3) More to the point of the thread the moral reason the US supports Israel is because they'd rather side with a country protecting itself than countries initiating hostilities. There is, simply no way, when one looks at the facts, that Israel is the aggressor. Only the shallowest arguments, which are based less in fact and more in propaganda, show Israel as an aggressor. History shows a very different story. Israel did not conquer the Palestinians. The Jews gained the right of self government through peaceful channels. The Muslims of the area were also meant to have the same right but they were willingly conquered by their Muslim neighbors. They never attempted to gain self government again until after they failed a second attempt to wipe out Israel and lost during the 7 day war. Only then did they attempt to create a Palestinian government.


Okay, so that's for why the US supports Israel and incidently why you should to. Now, since I don't like making arguments completely one sided and also ignoring current political complications I'll take this a step further.

Current considerations
Israel needs to make peace with its neighbors soon because the Palestinian situation is getting worse and constantly breeding fresh wounds. Palestinians have one trump card to play in negotiations: the right of return. The Palestinian leadership knows that it will never get this. Basically the population of Israel is 7 million with 1.5 million Muslims. If a million Muslims were allowed to become full Israeli citizens they would control 1/3rd of the vote. In a generation they would be more numerious than the Jews and it would no longer be a Jewish majority. This is well known. This is why it becomes the final bargaining chip. In the end, the right to return will be given up in exchange for some large concessions from Israel. This will include a certain percentage of the total land in the country, economic incentives (read money) and a formal apology for 'stealing their land.' Pretty much everyone that studies the region knows that this is where things will end up, the question is how to get there.

Israel did something incredibly stupid a few years back. They unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip. President Abbas had been elected with an overwhelming majority of Palestinian votes. Negotiations would have been possible. Had Israel negotiated and shown the Palestinian people that peaceful negotiation could be successful it would have weakened the extremists. In addition it would strengthen Abbas who would have successfully negotiated independence for the Gaza Strip and enormous achievement. Instead Israel acted alone, which had the opposite result. Abbas was marginalized and the extremists were able to claim that it was their terrorist activities which got results. Between this and corruption the extremist group Hamas came to power. Hamas refuses to deal with Israel and will not recognize previous agreements. This is a no starter for any type of negotiations. No country in the world can negotiate with a group that refuses to acknowledge previous accords.

Right now the Palestinian territories are in bad shape and unable to come to a ruling consensus. There is one man who can bridge the gap and unite the Palestinians. Poll data shows that if he were a candidate he would win an election with an overwhelming majority of votes from all sides of the Palestinian spectrum. He's a moderate, currently in an Israeli jail, that is willing to negotiate with Israel. Israel will undoubtably release him in the next prisoner release deal they make. This will probably be timed with Palestinian elections so he can essentially get out of jail and immediately use the momentum from that to win the elections and restart the peace process. Syria and Lebanon will both enter treaties shortly after thus ending, what will be a nearly 70 year crisis.

This will also have additional secondary effects throughout the region. Many of the extremists, even the ones completely unconnected with the Palestinians, use the Palestinians to garner support. The majority of Muslims in the Middle East do not support terrorism, but they are sympathetic to the cause of the Palestinians. Have you wondered why the extremists funnel money into the territories for weapons and to pay the families of suicide bombers and yet there's no money for a sewer system? The worse off the Palestinians are the better it is for these extremist groups that use them to garner popular support. Making peace will end this practice and will substantially weaken Muslim extremists across the world.

...and hopefully that puts this conversation onto a more positive track.


The only bone I have with what you've said is the "Peace" part. The only time there will probably be "Peace" in the middle east, with Israel, is in (only if you believe in it) the end of times, (I.E., Revelation). I don't foresee any peace being brokered in the near future. BUT your conclusion is correct if peace does occur, it would completely erode support.

+Rep for yourself, excellant post. And there are quite a few people who agree with you on this forum. We're not all "Negative" towards the jews and Israel. Heck, my best friend is Jewish, I went to synagogue with him twice.

[DINAMO788]

what a a magnificantly long read....and comming from a guy who does not enjoy reading, brvo sonyfan6, you should definitly become a columnist.

that post was probably the best post i have ever read.....ever.

[Firefox]

What about the pre-war era where there were minimal tensions between
Jews, Christians and Muslims in 'Israel'?

And for all the people saying that Jewish people don't have power in government, they do actually
its called lobbying (sadly it is just as much prevalent here in Canada :()

[DINAMO788]

What about the pre-war era where there were minimal tensions between
Jews, Christians and Muslims in 'Israel'?

And for all the people saying that Jewish people don't have power in government, they do actually
its called lobbying (sadly it is just as much prevalent here in Canada :()


lobby groups put forth their private effort in the ebst interest of their cause....they arent trying to control the government.

[Vulgotha]

no, but his point is, they still have a rather strong voice. But by no means are "controlling" the government.

[Firefox]

no, but his point is, they still have a rather strong voice. But by no means are "controlling" the government.

They aren't "controlling" but certainly "influencing" the decisions some
politicians make.

[JordanL]

They aren't "controlling" but certainly "influencing" the decisions some
politicians make.

And? Christian and Muslim groups do the same thing. I don't see how its especially vile when Jewish people do it.

[Hezz]

I don't get this, it was Israel who attack Palestina and took their land...I don't care what the Bible says... If your a civil country u don't base your actions out of old books. But u use your intelligent. I can't see the intelligent attacking a country because the bible says it's just.

Ever since it has been a troublesome region (I have forgotten the past wars , but I have not forgotten the war that started in the late 40's when u supposed to be civilized.
THe Western nation was always against the arabs....while they did nothing...When did you ever see the arabs attacking first??
It was always the US and Israelites ATTACKING others.....
How come th US in a decade was unable to kill 6 million people, while in the WWII 6 mil. jews were killed.....I find that hard to believe..there still is no prove of that....I know that jews were killed because they were Jews, but still I can't accept that 6 million were killed..
These info comes from the Jews....and from nobody else.

The arabs were mathematical wizards hundreds of years ago......they can't be stupid....
The Jews got rich by accident...when the Germans learned them to work with diamonds , soon after that they took over every thing and they got rich from there on.......keeping trade in the family and only rely on other jews...that was there strength.

In the (big)war more then 10 years ago... they imported black jews from Ethiopia and used them as foot soldiers before the better trained white Jews came into action.....this I still can't understand.

America needs levridge Israel provided that...the bound became stronger as the Jews (80's ) were welcome in the US and they brought there Billions of dollar to the US.....The US is Israel and Israel is the US....
there bound is hard to break.
they have strong economical ties.....and other ties
Why do you have to see something Jewish in every movie and tv-series.
There aren't many Jews on this planet..... U see??
The US needed money and smart people....

Sventax,

It didn't exactly come about as you describe. As was stated by Jordan L. The Palestinians were a mixed race of peoples consisting of probably Arabs, Jews and other older races. They were mostly Moslems but also some Christians and Jews.

The problem began with the balance of power as immigrant Jews started moving into the Palestine area and became more than a minority. Once the balance of power began to change there was conflict. When a legitimate Israel was sanctioned by the UN it became an officially recognized nation and grew with a great deal of support from American and European Jews. And in fact a large percentage of the population of Israel are Palestinian peoples.

My understanding is that the UN borders were not accepted by many Palestianians peoples and so Israeli supporters had to fight to make the borders so.

[DINAMO788]

i personally dont think anyone who does not have a solid udnerstanding of the history can state any claims. i for one did not have a solid background to support mt statements but i knew they were true. with the help of sonyfan6's post, i now was able to make sense of what i was saying and support it with factual evidence

[JordanL]

i personally dont think anyone who does not have a solid udnerstanding of the history can state any claims. i for one did not have a solid background to support mt statements but i knew they were true. with the help of sonyfan6's post, i now was able to make sense of what i was saying and support it with factual evidence

Sonyfan6 is not a factual source, even if what he said is true. I'd caution you to go read about what he said in some primary sources.

[Axe&Hammer]

I have got a prize for whoever can tell me who the second most supported nation under the US is?

South Korea and Israel are the two nations that come to mind,if you are justing talking about military aid in dollars then its Egypt and Israel(got that Suez on lock;))

[JordanL]

South Korea and Israel are the two nations that come to mind,if you are justing talking about military aid in dollars then its Egypt and Israel(got that Suez on lock;))

Yeah... we don't really support Egypt much else...

I would say our second most supported country other than Israel, (if you would really call Israel our most supported ally), would be Canada. We just generally do whatever each other needs.

And Canada pretty much doesn't care about the things that piss off the US government much.

[Axe&Hammer]

Yeah... we don't really support Egypt much else...
We care enough to give them 1.5 billion in military aid and support them logistically

I would say our second most supported country other than Israel, (if you would really call Israel our most supported ally), would be Canada. We just generally do whatever each other needs.
Canada isn't supported by the United States per say,we are the closest allies and trade partners,we 'support' them via trade,and they support us with east cost electricity


And Canada pretty much doesn't care about the things that piss off the US government much.
Yeah they do,even if they dont want to admit it.

[Supaman²²³]

And Canada pretty much doesn't care about the things that piss off the US government much.

And thats bad because?

Last time i checked Canada was still an independent nation and not a state, and if we feel that its wrong to send our troops to country for no logical reason than thats our right, no matter how bad it pisses off the US "Government".

And whatever happened to the Canadian support in Southern Afghanistan, an area that is extremely violent, and contains the Alqeada terrorists that started this war against terror.

[JordanL]

And thats bad because?

Last time i checked Canada was still an independent nation and not a state, and if we feel that its wrong to send our troops to country for no logical reason than thats our right, no matter how bad it pisses off the US "Government".

And whatever happened to the Canadian support in Southern Afghanistan, an area that is extremely violent, and contains the Alqeada terrorists that started this war against terror.

:lol:

I was giving a reason, not making a judgment guys. ;)

[sonyfan6]

Sonyfan6 is not a factual source, even if what he said is true. I'd caution you to go read about what he said in some primary sources.


This is very true. Thank you for pointing it out. When I took part in these political debates more frequently over the summer I always cited my sources. (Dinamo788 was part of those conversations so he's well aware that I use good sources.) I didn't do that with this one because it was from memory, whereas over the summer I sat there with a source handy while typing. If people are interested in reading further just contact me privately and ask as I'm always willing to make reading recommendations.

Incidentally, I want to apologize to JordanL. I started typing that post before his request for citations was posted. However my post took sometime to finish writing so there were several additions to the thread by the time I was finished, JordanL's request included. If I chime in again I will be sure to include citations.

[Supaman²²³]

:lol:

I was giving a reason, not making a judgment guys. ;)

I see.....

*hides in Igloo*

[OKlondon]

I'm with JordanL and Dinamo788..... There is nothing wrong with us being aligned with Israel, and they've been quite good to us.... Whereas the other Arab countries (with a collective IQ that barely reaches double digits) Have always been antagonistic, brutal and just plain violent.

If you read the Bible, it does spell out very specifically what will happen in the end of days. I'm a christian, I believe in it. If nothing else, all this stuff in the middle east is convincing more people that perhaps Revelation is a bit closer then some originally thought. (though some have always said IT WILL BE THIS DECADE!!!...riiight.)


I think we can all agree that "arabs" are capable of being "civilized". -JordanL


And sure, there are Jews in very high and powerful places, Hitler himself even felt threatened by this pre-Holocaust (and was one of the reasons he began to oust them). True, they're in the media, The Seinfeld cast was all jewish, just for an illustration. So is Mel Brooks etc.

Do I think they "Run" the country? NO...haha..NO. But there are always conspiracy guys who says so. And who say that the holocaust was an elaborate and lucrative jewish hoax........ Some people need to get their brain examined for believing that.
To Supaman, the reason we're targeted is 3 reasons:

1. We're a Christian nation, no matter what the Supreme court says.
2. Israel is a Judaistic nation, and as history has quite clearly shown, the other nations (Islamic or otherwise) just plain hate them.
3. We formed Israel back in early first half of the 20th century. They kind of got erked with that.

Just like to say that the reason people hate America is not because you are Christian state, its because you interfer with other people's business at the wrong time and the time when people want you interfer you dont.

[Firefox]

And? Christian and Muslim groups do the same thing. I don't see how its especially vile when Jewish people do it.

Did I say it is vile that they do it? Christians do it, everyone does it...I know
that. I just said they have influence point anywhere where I said it is vile.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

[Supaman²²³]

Just like to say that the reason people hate America is not because you are Christian state, its because you interfer with other people's business at the wrong time and the time when people want you interfer you dont.

I think that its been proven time and time again where the US will step in if it has special interests like ...oil. I mean come on do you honestly think that Chaney and the gang decided to help out the poor Iraqis and give them a regime change at the price of thousands of American lives, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives and Trillions of dollars, especially with all the domestic problems? I mean come on geez, the American public is not that ******ed!

[OKlondon]

I think that its been proven time and time again where the US will step in if it has special interests like ...oil. I mean come on do you honestly think that Chaney and the gang decided to help out the poor Iraqis and give them a regime change at the price of thousands of American lives, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives and Trillions of dollars, especially with all the domestic problems? I mean come on geez, the American public is not that ******ed!

Yeah you would think wouldnt you.

The problem with the Israel and the rest of the Middle East will never go away until one side leaves. Sadly both US and Russian aid puts weapons in both sides' hands leaving plenty of casualties.

[Supaman²²³]

Well since i am too lazy to type an essay like Sonyfan, ill post an image to describe how i feel, since a picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/img/features/latuff/img/18.jpg

Before is got shot with the Anti semitic shotgun, i would like to point out that this cartoon is by Norman Finklestien a Jewish man!

[DINAMO788]

I think that its been proven time and time again where the US will step in if it has special interests like ...oil. I mean come on do you honestly think that Chaney and the gang decided to help out the poor Iraqis and give them a regime change at the price of thousands of American lives, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives and Trillions of dollars, especially with all the domestic problems? I mean come on geez, the American public is not that ******ed!

bringing in a ******ed american point. my fairy tale i like to believe is that the US went in because Saddam was a bad man and not only was it bad for iraqis but it was potentially dangerous to the entire world, mainly us though that saddam was in power........the president didn't tell me it was about oil :)

[Axe&Hammer]

The problem with the Israel and the rest of the Middle East will never go away until one side leaves.
I'm betting on a massive war

Sadly both US and Russian aid puts weapons in both sides' hands leaving plenty of casualties.
Hey dont blame it on the Superpowers,Western Europe gave weapons to the Arab nations and Israel.

[Firefox]

Here is a Sticking Quote, we will all learn from this situation: (these cartoons are from Norman Finkelstein)


'Most young Israelis don't know what the IDF is doing to the Palestinians...Most young Israelis had never visited a Palestinian town or talked to a Palestinian. Many don't know what life is like on the other side of the border. But I have gone there, and I know how the Palestinians suffer as a result of the occupation. That's why I just can't become a soldier in the IDF. I simply can't do it'.

(Omri Evron, 19-year-old, Tel-Aviv, considered a criminal by Israeli authorities because he refuses to enlist to the Israeli military. Read about him here: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article5901.shtml)http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/img/features/latuff/img/51.jpg

[DINAMO788]

some people are not cut out for battle and prefer prison. do you think the palestinians woudln't trade their situation in a second? or do you think palestinians would risk denying their countries orders as to not kill israelis. obviously i cant speak for everyone but i believe the VAST majority will not.....and probably could care less about the israelis

edit: saw the pic. means nothing to me and has no effect. anyone can make a cartoon based on ones opinions.

[Axe&Hammer]

Israel's wall of shame,hopefully this one will fall.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/AbuDisWall.jpg

[Supaman²²³]

some people are not cut out for battle and prefer prison. do you think the palestinians woudln't trade their situation in a second? or do you think palestinians would risk denying their countries orders as to not kill israelis. obviously i cant speak for everyone but i believe the VAST majority will not.....and probably could care less about the israelis

edit: saw the pic. means nothing to me and has no effect. anyone can make a cartoon based on ones opinions.

And what does that say about that society?

[Firefox]

And what does that say about that society?

What do you mean about that? :-?

Israel's wall of shame,hopefully this one will fall.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/AbuDisWall.jpg

I agree with you fully:
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/img/features/latuff/img/17.jpg

[Supaman²²³]

What do you mean about that? :-?

I mean what does it say about the Israeli society when they will gladly throw one of there own children in prison while his only crime is that he doesn't want to harm innocent people. And they are suppose to be working towards a peace process :roll:

[DINAMO788]

yea, hes doesn't get killed like he might in those middle eastern countries. what happens if you dont enroll for the draft here, you get to just get off free? i dont think so

[Supaman²²³]

yea, hes doesn't get killed like he might in those middle eastern countries. what happens if you dont enroll for the draft here, you get to just get off free? i dont think so

Israel is one of the few countries to have mandatory military conscriptions at all times. None of the Arab countries have mandatory military service. Please do your research before coming here to smear the truth.