Forza 3 @ E3

[SixAxisRumble]

Does it have a chance agaisnt GT5? Will the graphics be able to hold up against the might of GT5?

Discuss

[Rareware]

So a game has to have good graphics to be good? That's news to me! I think it's kind of shallow to think of a game solely in terms of graphics like you just did.

[Scotracer]

Gameplay: Yes (Forza 1 was an easy match for GT4 and Forza 2 is a match for GT5P)

Graphics: No (Turn 10 aren't great artists but they never go for photorealism, the game has it's own unique cartoon-esque look)

Sound: Most definetely yes (Forza 2's sounds are infinitely better than Gran Turismo 5 Prologues and I see this continuing)

Online: Easily yes (GT5P online is a joke)

Peripheral support: No (The 360 doesn't support the G25 :()

[Agriel]

Moving this to the proper section. Guys please post threads in the proper sections.

[SixAxisRumble]

Thier's so many sections now no one knows where to post :confused:

[Agriel]

Thier's so many sections now no one knows where to post :confused:
I understand there are new sections and it could be confusing. But if you put "E3" in your title then I would say the E3 section would be a safe bet

[kippers4brkfast]

Gameplay: Yes (Forza 1 was an easy match for GT4 and Forza 2 is a match for GT5P)

Graphics: No (Turn 10 aren't great artists but they never go for photorealism, the game has it's own unique cartoon-esque look)

Sound: Most definetely yes (Forza 2's sounds are infinitely better than Gran Turismo 5 Prologues and I see this continuing)

Online: Easily yes (GT5P online is a joke)

Peripheral support: No (The 360 doesn't support the G25 :()

Agreed, except I am hoping GT5 online is better than the prologue.

[Xaor]

The main things I want to see from Forza 3 are things which help to immerse people into the game. In car view is crucial. Nothing is more crucial than it. Then weather. Day and night, and graphics.

The gameplay is solid and I'm sure they'll be improving on it anyway. The only real gameplay problems are stuff like the lack of pitting, lack of cars on the track, and online flaws (no penalisation and the PI system which is appalling).

[Nick_p]

Does it have a chance agaisnt GT5? Will the graphics be able to hold up against the might of GT5?

Discuss

Sure great graphics are nice but when it comes to racing games, it the way it plays which is the most important thing ;)

Loved Forza 2...cant wait for 3, hopefully we will see something on it at E3.

Just hope the rumor I read a while ago on here about forza 3 being on two discs isnt true

[arthur]

The main things I want to see from Forza 3 are things which help to immerse people into the game. i thought it already was immersive, to me it is the greatest console sim out there to date, its the closest any console game has come to acheiving realism, and plainly stated, GT was where i started playing sims, and it doesnt seem like offering anything more.

In car view is crucial. Nothing is more crucial than it. Then weather. Day and night, and graphics.PGR3/4 had them, but that doesnt make a game great, so too does cutscenes, at the end of the day, i love the effort put in by PD on that, but gameplay is what matters, forza nails it in places where GT hasnt even began to scratch the surface

The gameplay is solid and I'm sure they'll be improving on it anyway. The only real gameplay problems are stuff like the lack of pitting,

lack of cars on the track, and online flaws (no penalisation and the PI system which is appalling).there isnt any penalisation in many games i have seen, and it is a place where they can improve on, as for lack of cars, i think that your is misplaced, better to have 8 cars on screen with great AI, than the 16 in GT and have a dumb one, priorities

[Xaor]

i thought it already was immersive, to me it is the greatest console sim out there to date, its the closest any console game has come to acheiving realism, and plainly stated, GT was where i started playing sims, and it doesnt seem like offering anything more.

Right... but it's still not THAT realistic, the graphics are poor... I don't feel like in a game. The view is still back in 1998. I don't really get the point of your post.

Why are you bringing GT into this, by the way, in a reply to me, who said nothing about it?


PGR3/4 had them, but that doesnt make a game great, so too does cutscenes, at the end of the day, i love the effort put in by PD on that, but gameplay is what matters, forza nails it in places where GT hasnt even began to scratch the surfaceNot entirely true. The physics aren't perfect. It's a common delusion that its got everything much better.

I don't see why you feel the need, when replying to my wants for Forza 3 , to post about Forza's gameplay in comparison to GT? It's not about GT v Forza.

As for 'so too does cutscenes'.. What?


there isnt any penalisation in many games i have seen, and it is a place where they can improve on, as for lack of cars, i think that your is misplaced, better to have 8 cars on screen with great AI, than the 16 in GT and have a dumb one, priorities

Great AI? What? I've never played against GT5's AI, (just played it online quite a lot.. which has its ups and downs), but Forza's AI is nowhere near great.

They are good at some things, but they aren't great. They constantly cut you off and some of the more vicious ones will bash you straight off the track.

In any case, online is where its at. Forza's single player was the most boring thing ever in comparison to the online (even with all Forza's online). I'd definitely want more cars online.

It also adds to the immersion.. because 8 is just too small to be realistic really.

[Scotracer]

arthur, I am sorry to break it to you but Forza 2 isn't that realistic...

and for that matter, neither is GT5P.

Forza's problem lies in the tuning setup capabilities of the cars (it's just wrong). For instance, with some tuning you can get the Ferrari 333SP to lap Laguna Seca in 1:04 seconds...wtf? That time isn't even achievable in a Formula 1 car! Other areas of pants-on-head-******edness is how some cars can set fastest times with tyre pressures above 40 or even 50psi! Fission MAILED!

Forza has great ground for realism, and a good tyre model but the tuning needs to be worked on.

I am yet to play Ferrari Challenge on PS3 but I have a feeling it might be up there with FM2 and GT5P.

If you want realism, my signature should give you all the information you need ;)

[Evoking1230]

cant wait to hear/see about Forza 3...definitely a fan...going to give it a 2nd playthrough pretty soon

[Itaintrite]

So a game has to have good graphics to be good? That's news to me! I think it's kind of shallow to think of a game solely in terms of graphics like you just did.
Eh... where in the original post does it say Forza 3 needs to look better than GT5 to be good? He was only wondering, like the rest of us, how Forza 3's graphics will hold up against GT5. Forza 2's gameplay was already very good so I'd like to see how awesome the graphics will be.

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

[Carsonal]

I quite liked Forza2.
Its a good game, not great.
A damn shame my save file was deleted.

Since I know very little about cars/car games, the only thing I could really ask for is just a wider variety of tracks.

[SixAxisRumble]

Eh... where in the original post does it say Forza 3 needs to look better than GT5 to be good? He was only wondering, like the rest of us, how Forza 3's graphics will hold up against GT5. Forza 2's gameplay was already very good so I'd like to see how awesome the graphics will be.

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

Nailed it, i loved forza 2's gameplay. Have not played GT5p yet but from what i understand is it's better gameplay wise than Forza 2? Also i asked about the graphics because in replay mode GT5p is just the sex, not so much in gameplay graphics (Grid whoops it's ***) but can the 360 get close to those those GT5 replays?

[Linkedscorpion]

Eh... where in the original post does it say Forza 3 needs to look better than GT5 to be good? He was only wondering, like the rest of us, how Forza 3's graphics will hold up against GT5. Forza 2's gameplay was already very good so I'd like to see how awesome the graphics will be.

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

IMO gt5 was always based better mainly because it had better graphics, everyone (mainly blind fanboys) based gt5p by graphics and not by its online service, lack of effects, etc.

[HowlBridges]

Making racing sims is hopeless as long as Gt still persists, and the designer said he's only at 20% of where he wants Gt to go lol

sorry but after playing gt everything else seems mediocre, sims, that is. The street racing/offroad thrones are still up for grabs

[A7MAD]

Not Forza 2 not PGR4 and not GT5p have delivered for me yet, none of these titles wowed me, that's my opinion and I'm waiting for something to wow me still.

Right now I'm enjoying GRID although I'm crap at it. :)

[HowlBridges]

grid has pretty sweet graphics, played the demo. Gt5p is the ****. the tracks are BEAUTIFUL. That cant be denied.

drift mode is kinda pointless though. I suck at that. you lose all your points if you even touch grass, that really hard

[Switch]

If GT5 is anything like GT5p, yes, Forza 3 can easily stand a chance.

Is there confirmation of Forza 3 at E3? If so, I hope it's not released until next year. I can't imagine the title being ready yet...so close to Forza 2. That isn't enough time to improve Forza 2 IMO.

[Rareware]

Eh... where in the original post does it say Forza 3 needs to look better than GT5 to be good? He was only wondering, like the rest of us, how Forza 3's graphics will hold up against GT5. Forza 2's gameplay was already very good so I'd like to see how awesome the graphics will be.

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

Well, when he says....

Will the graphics be able to hold up against the might of GT5?
Discuss

That says to me that he feels that the graphics have to be good for the game itself to be as good as GT5.

[SixAxisRumble]

Good graphics certainly help with the overall experience, Forza 2 was just horrid looking, especially when you compare it to GT5 or Grid! Hell even PGR 3

[Switch]

The environments and tracks in Forza 2 are much better looking, deeper, and more realistic than the tracks in GT5p. In addition, since this is graphic related, the paint shop gives it a graphics edge as far as customization. The places GT5p exceeds Forza 2 in graphics are the replay system, cars, and GUI.

After playing the grid demo though, the cars in that game graphically exceed GT5p, as do the replays. However, the game is not anywhere near the level of GT and Forza in realism and physics. Grid is just an arcade racer, though the damage is pretty tight.

It's also the first game with the new Camaro...and THAT rocks.

[Tetsu]

Some aspects of Forza 2 are better, some aspects of GT5 Prologue are better.

Some of the sounds in Forza are stellar, some are utter crap, like deflated Buick tires which make even the smallest cars sound like an SUV, and erratic matching of the tire noise to the grip envelope. I've left the road with no tire noise at all.

Some of Forza's graphics are fabulous, but some are distinctly lacking. Some tracks like Nissan/Sunset Speedway frankly look unfinished. The cars are decent but not great. The downloadables are a mixed bag. The last Car Pack had cars which were basically retooled cars which are already in the game save for one or maybe two. I didn't even bother.

The replays are worse than in Forza 1, and they weren't anything to cheer about. The driver views as has been said are lost in the 90s. There was even one view in the early demos Turn 10 took out! Why?? The view of the track is rather iffy with Forza, while I've always felt "right there" in a GT game. Gran Turismo is the most immersive racing game I've ever had the pleasure to experience.

Physics are mixed as well. Forza has way too much oversteer, and trying to get a handle on a car which doesn't want to stop turning is much more troublesome, at least for me. And while Forza has the decent but proprietary - and sometimes fragile - FFB Wheel, the Playstations get to enjoy support from the impeccable Logitech wheels, especially the G25. Immersion increase confirmed.

The paint shop bugs drove me away. Having a car with graphics that start sliding the moment you hit the track is just hideous, especially if you DARE to try and give your car a delicious carbon fiber effect. Forget ever driving it. People are begging for unlocked liveries more for this reason than kids wanting to steal paint jobs.

While Turn 10 can produce a nice racer, they have a ways to go to achieve the quality in all aspects that Polyphony Digital delivers. In fact, I say that unapologetically about all sims.

[RotaryMatt]

Forza 3 has the potential to be a gt5 killer but will it? If gt5 doesn't do atleast what forza had online then I would be disappointed online wis. I don't know its hard cuz I love forza online but always thought forza looked like crap and the whole forza body parts were better for speed but looked god ugly on most cars. I'm a fur hard gt fan so I'm going to say gt5 will have all the features we want online.

[arthur]

xaor, graphics isnt where its all at, and soo to is content, what the game offers in terms of depth is what is amazing and still amazes people who have played the game to this date.

as for the graphics, its not the best looking racer out, neither will it be if they continue with the phsics oriented route that made it a classic with both reviewers and sim racers. in other words, graphics isnt what encompasses what a great game is, and i am glad they have gone for more substance rather than more pixels.

as for physics, they have gotten better, the framerate more solid, i mean, the model deformation is better and you can total, there is ever a bit more sensitivity when you tweak the settings, and that to me shouts improvement.

scotracer, i never said it was realistics, i said it was as close to reality compared to any console game, or racer that came before it, you my have misinterprated there

[Xaor]

xaor, graphics isnt where its all at, and soo to is content, what the game offers in terms of depth is what is amazing and still amazes people who have played the game to this date.

Then you need to play a PC sim. Forza's depth is severely lacking in numerous departments. GT4 had considerable depth in its upgrades and tuning. There is more in Forza, but not by some quantum leap.


as for the graphics, its not the best looking racer out, neither will it be if they continue with the phsics oriented route that made it a classic with both reviewers and sim racers. in other words, graphics isnt what encompasses what a great game is, and i am glad they have gone for more substance rather than more pixels.

Firstly, I'm not sure where you've fabricated the idea that I'm somehow implying that graphics are of such great importance. I have never implied anything other than gameplay comes first... but gameplay alone, which is not far off what Forza was (and a decent online service) is simply not enough to make me want to buy it again. The content is short, and most of it uninspiring. The DLC is really dull... The main area which I find lacking in FM2 is the immersive quantity, and the main reason for that is the poor graphics.

Both GRiD and PGR4 are infinitely better games for the fact that they have great graphics, they have nice effects, and the height of immersion which is the in car view. It just feels so much more.. real.


as for physics, they have gotten better, the framerate more solid, i mean, the model deformation is better and you can total, there is ever a bit more sensitivity when you tweak the settings, and that to me shouts improvement.

It's not much of an improvement :/

There is no model deformation, just a grading. GRiD has deformation. Forza just has about 5 different parts which get damaged. Frankly, the graphical damage on Forza is a joke and I couldn't care for it at all. The damage I like... the visuals that go with it are pretty bad really.

[arthur]

you know what, maybe i need to play a PC sim, but im not a fan of PC gaming, plus i dont have the cash to burn upgrading each and everytime, and plainly put, thats the truth, im also a huge fan of the controller, the keyboard gaming stuff has really never rubbed in.as for PC games, they have an edge on console counterparts for obvious reasons, they have better GPU's, and more RAM dedicated for game processing. you can then be allowed to do more in terms of physics and graphics, in terms of tuningand how all those things then add up, other than that, space is never an issue as you can store entire games on the HDD, in other words, you can never be able to compare the two platforms, the PC is light years ahead of where consoles are, and continues to evolve at a faster rate, with developers programming on it actually moving in tandem with the progress. no comparison would ever be reasonable.as for graphics, that explanation falls straight on its face, GTA isnt one of the best looking games out this generation, neither is RFoM, but be assured, they are some of the best playing games out thus far on any console, and come the end of this generation, we will still be talking about how good they played, graphics arent what immersed people into those games, it was the story and gameplay.when it comes to forza, it the tuning, the A.I, and the options that come with model deformation among others that make the game so appealing, more, the preciseness of how the engine picks up even the little changes in tuning, and the learning curve in terms of tuning, it may not have as much content as GT or many other racers out there, but it offers more in terms of replayability when compared to those. case and point is that i have never had a hard race in GT that i repeated it just to see how things would turn out, i do that a lot in forza tweaking the ride, trying to get better performances, thats replayability, there is immersion. maybe we are too different and we lok for different things in games, bottom line is that no one will ever be able to convince me that better looking game sare the best, lair is a great example.as for model deformation, i dont have the time, i have to be getting home

[Xaor]

you know what, maybe i need to play a PC sim, but im not a fan of PC gaming, plus i dont have the cash to burn upgrading each and everytime, and plainly put, thats the truth, im also a huge fan of the controller, the keyboard gaming stuff has really never rubbed in.as for PC games, they have an edge on console counterparts for obvious reasons, they have better GPU's, and more RAM dedicated for game processing. you can then be allowed to do more in terms of physics and graphics, in terms of tuningand how all those things then add up, other than that, space is never an issue as you can store entire games on the HDD, in other words, you can never be able to compare the two platforms, the PC is light years ahead of where consoles are, and continues to evolve at a faster rate, with developers programming on it actually moving in tandem with the progress. no comparison would ever be reasonable.

If you truly believe that Forza's problems in the physics departments, or graphics departments are something to do with the console, that's highly depressing. Some of the things wrong with Forza's physics aren't that they aren't complicated enough... but the fact they are somehow fundamentally flawed. Yes, PC sims do have that advantage but in many ways Forza's physics are considerably far off reality.


as for graphics, that explanation falls straight on its face, GTA isnt one of the best looking games out this generation, neither is RFoM, but be assured, they are some of the best playing games out thus far on any console, and come the end of this generation, we will still be talking about how good they played, graphics arent what immersed people into those games, it was the story and gameplay.

What 'explanation' falls straight on its face? Good graphics to equate to better games. If I could press a button and up the quality of Forza's graphics up to GT5/GRiD (without the GRiD special effects), and add the replays of GT5, Forza would instantly be a MASSIVELY better game. Easier to watch, easier to enjoy. Even on GT4 I found myself able to sincerely watch a race, and enjoy it. I can do the same on PGR4. I prefer numerous aspects of Forza 2, but it doesn't stop me wanting to bring the other parts of the experience up to standard. That's what it's about.

In the same way that I want GT5 to have an online experience on par with Forza 2's, I want both GT5 and Forza to have PGR4's weather, because I know that it really helps the game, and in a sim it can add a lot to the way the game works. It adds endless playability, AND realistic scenarios.

It would be absolutely superb to start a 10 lap race at Nordeschlieffe and to have it start raining on lap 3 which began to change the physics, and puddles started to form.

Forza 2 is so far off being to the point where upgrading one area would seriously damage others.


when it comes to forza, it the tuning, the A.I, and the options that come with model deformation among others that make the game so appealing, more, the preciseness of how the engine picks up even the little changes in tuning, and the learning curve in terms of tuning, it may not have as much content as GT or many other racers out there, but it offers more in terms of replayability when compared to those.

I seriously disagree. The tuning, as I keep saying, really isn't THAT much more advanced than GT4's. It's much more accessible, and I'm sure more realistic but I can't actually think of much there which wasn't on GT4.

The AI, again, is not that great... it does some things really well, like calming off when you cut ahead... but then again it's really EASY to get ahead of them in that way... yet trying to take them down a straight? No chance, they'll cut straight across you. It doesn't bother me much as the single player really is awful in comparison to the varied (although marred by flaws) online that Forza offers.

As for the model deformation... I really don't get you on this point. What options does the pathetic damage system bring... as soon as you get damaged you are either going to: understeer (front gets hit), or oversteer (back gets hit). Against competent opposition, that will screw your race up, unless you are miles ahead or just about to finish. Though its good it does have the damage, the inability to repair the front and back bumpers (which is all well and good for some races but in the R3-R2-R1 it's actually plain unrealistic).

Forza can go on and on about realism all it likes, but it isn't even the whole realism package, let alone an all round package with great content in as well. Weather, detailed pitting, cockpit view, qualifying, larger grids, these are all factors in REAL racing.. I can't quite understand why you are so afraid of all these factors.


case and point is that i have never had a hard race in GT that i repeated it just to see how things would turn out, i do that a lot in forza tweaking the ride, trying to get better performances, thats replayability, there is immersion.

That isn't immersion. That's making you do the same thing over and over again to make your car better... which is fine except online, which is where I live, tuning is completely pointless because every class is dominated by one or two cars. DCBA and S are dominated by Elises. We're talking 5 seconds a lap faster on most tracks.

Tuning is fine.. but unfortunately the PI system is fatally broken so.. actually the winner will be the best driver... or more likely the one with the best car.


maybe we are too different and we lok for different things in games, bottom line is that no one will ever be able to convince me that better looking game sare the best, lair is a great example.as for model deformation, i dont have the time, i have to be getting home

I don't know why you keep implying that I'm saying that graphics are of priority importance, especially considering I've already called you out on it. It's not the most important thing. Gameplay is. Thing is, a lot of the things I want address both presentation and graphics at the same time.

[razorblade416]

I'm a big fan of racers and I'd love to have the Forza and PGR series, but I'd def take GT over both of those any day :D

btw, has anybody heard anything about a Test Drive Unlimited 2 coming out? and whether or not it will be multiplat?

[arthur]

If you truly believe that Forza's problems in the physics departments, or graphics departments are something to do with the console, that's highly depressing.
no need fir semantics, an example, or lets say question, why the hell dont we have crysis graphics games on any console yet? why do games look better on PC's, or why on earth are you never going to get 360 and ps3 results on the wii? hardware, thats where all the problems start, they restrict what you can and cant do, how far you go with this or that, and if you take the physics route like forza 2 did, more RAM will be llocated to the CPU leaving less to the GPU.

am i depressing? no, far from it, if you ever needed a hint as to why there really isnt a racing game with better physics compared to forza to date on any console, the answer is up there, hardware at the end of the day has everything to do with anything you have on any disc, it is dependent on it.

Some of the things wrong with Forza's physics aren't that they aren't complicated enough... but the fact they are somehow fundamentally flawed. Yes, PC sims do have that advantage but in many ways Forza's physics are considerably far off reality.and you missed the point, i said, they are the closest we have come to reality on any console to date, are they flawed, yes they are. why? you will never get a CPU that can actually simulate anything close to anywhere near where it is in real life.

as for the simplicity, i dont see how simple they are, seeing that no one is going the same route on consoles, and considering the fact that you really havent programmed for any game as far as i know, i would think you are the wrong person to be making such a comment.

What 'explanation' falls straight on its face? Good graphics to equate to better games. If I could press a button and up the quality of Forza's graphics up to GT5/GRiD (without the GRiD special effects), and add the replays of GT5, Forza would instantly be a MASSIVELY better game. Easier to watch, easier to enjoy. Even on GT4 I found myself able to sincerely watch a race, and enjoy it. I can do the same on PGR4. I prefer numerous aspects of Forza 2, but it doesn't stop me wanting to bring the other parts of the experience up to standard. That's what it's about.you again miss the point, and reading further afront, you acknowledge the fact that gameplay reigns supreme over graphics, you may have the best looking game, but if it plays like crap, then there is very little enjoyment that comes form it, its like having the most beautiful girlfriend who at the end of the day has no substance, or quality, who thinks that beauty is enough.

practically speaking, i hope more and more devs would try and concentrate on the gameplay aspects before touching up the graphics, it would make for a great gen.

In the same way that I want GT5 to have an online experience on par with Forza 2's, I want both GT5 and Forza to have PGR4's weather, because I know that it really helps the game, and in a sim it can add a lot to the way the game works. It adds endless playability, AND realistic scenarios. me too, and i have raised it before, but just like i want them, GT needs to get rid of the rubberband physics and get some greater physics in place, we are still talking trying to acheive reality, arent we?

It would be absolutely superb to start a 10 lap race at Nordeschlieffe and to have it start raining on lap 3 which began to change the physics, and puddles started to form.yes

Forza 2 is so far off being to the point where upgrading one area would seriously damage others.not as far off as most games are, and that, you have never seen

I seriously disagree. The tuning, as I keep saying, really isn't THAT much more advanced than GT4's. It's much more accessible, and I'm sure more realistic but I can't actually think of much there which wasn't on GT4. nope, it is, i have played both in great length, in fact, i reached 66% of GT4 before i touched forza, the tuning in GT is as basic as it gets, and most of the time, once you insert an upgrade, it automatically sets itself and gives you better handling, in fact the only car i ever had to tune in GT was the pagani zonda. there are also no tuning options that are as deep, and varied, and whilst GT's tuning is more accesible because of its sheer simplicity, it takes away the challenge and depth which is really needed.

if you ever need a take of how better the customization is better in forza, you need to go to yamauchi who said that they were indeed better, all you need to do is google.

The AI, again, is not that great... it does some things really well, like calming off when you cut ahead... but then again it's really EASY to get ahead of them in that way... yet trying to take them down a straight? No chance, they'll cut straight across you. It doesn't bother me much as the single player really is awful in comparison to the varied (although marred by flaws) online that Forza offers.the online is okay, just depends on who you ar playing, a game cannot be okay in single and splitscreen then have the same options messed up online, those are few and far, most of the reviews pointed to it having a great online, i will take that word.

As for the model deformation... I really don't get you on this point. What options does the pathetic damage system bring... as soon as you get damaged you are either going to: understeer (front gets hit), or oversteer (back gets hit).that would depend on a lot of things that you arent telling people here, and we both know it. it would depend on suspension, stronger suspension would offer you more handling but the car would get dameged more easily, it would depend on the speed difference betweeen the two cars, higher differences leading to more damage.
it would dependon the angle of impact, car type, weight, whether you have a lighter body kit, better parts, in other words, overall setting of the car. why arent you sharing all this? you try and generalize things that are over your understanding, and mine too as to how many variables are calculated before any of those things happen,

Against competent opposition, that will screw your race up, unless you are miles ahead or just about to finish. Though its good it does have the damage, the inability to repair the front and back bumpers (which is all well and good for some races but in the R3-R2-R1 it's actually plain unrealistic).the brute AI is an issue that needs to be addresed, just like having to win all races in a series for you to win the car

Forza can go on and on about realism all it likes, but it isn't even the whole realism package, let alone an all round package with great content in as well. Weather, detailed pitting, cockpit view, qualifying, larger grids, these are all factors in REAL racing.. I can't quite understand why you are so afraid of all these factors.again, its the closest we have come to realism.

weather i miss, pitting is the best in any console game to dae, cockpit view would be great, but it wont make or break a game, that is witnessed by the fact that there are geat racers that dont have the feature in this and past generations. qualifying would be great, but it doesnt bother me, i never qualify in any racing game. so it doesnt affect me.

larger grids would be great, but you missed the point that they had planned for a 12 car grid, i the end they couldnt hack it without sacrificing framerates, its a worthy sacrifice IMO

That isn't immersion. That's making you do the same thing over and over again to make your car better... which is fine except online, which is where I live, tuning is completely pointless because every class is dominated by one or two cars. DCBA and S are dominated by Elises. We're talking 5 seconds a lap faster on most tracks.and its also true in real life, isnt it?

Tuning is fine.. but unfortunately the PI system is fatally broken so.. actually the winner will be the best driver... or more likely the one with the best car. ever tried the car specific races with caps on power:idea:, you should, i know it exists, and im not even online:dunce. thats where tuning and better drivers thrive, you seem to have missed that



I don't know why you keep implying that I'm saying that graphics are of priority importance, especially considering I've already called you out on it. It's not the most important thing. Gameplay is. Thing is, a lot of the things I want address both presentation and graphics at the same time.and you finally get it

[Mekstizzle]

I understand there are new sections and it could be confusing. But if you put "E3" in your title then I would say the E3 section would be a safe bet
There's still too many sections for everything. It's broken the flow of things

[Xaor]

no need fir semantics, an example, or lets say question, why the hell dont we have crysis graphics games on any console yet? why do games look better on PC's, or why on earth are you never going to get 360 and ps3 results on the wii? hardware, thats where all the problems start, they restrict what you can and cant do, how far you go with this or that, and if you take the physics route like forza 2 did, more RAM will be llocated to the CPU leaving less to the GPU.

So when Forza 3 has halfway-decent graphics (unlike Forza 2), and I quote this... will you accept the fact that Forza 2 is not actually the limit?


am i depressing? no, far from it, if you ever needed a hint as to why there really isnt a racing game with better physics compared to forza to date on any console, the answer is up there, hardware at the end of the day has everything to do with anything you have on any disc, it is dependent on it.
and you missed the point, i said, they are the closest we have come to reality on any console to date, are they flawed, yes they are. why? you will never get a CPU that can actually simulate anything close to anywhere near where it is in real life.

You say it's realistic, and yet... in GT4... you couldn't pile insane amounts of horsepower into a car and still have it easily drivable... in Forza? No problem.

That's one of endless MASSIVE flaws in the 'realism'. From my, relatively short time with GT5P (although it does have some bizzare problems)... there is very little to pick between them in realism. They each have their problems. Thing is, the fact that Forza is the best out of .. one and a half games, doesn't mean as you imply that some ceiling has been found.


as for the simplicity, i dont see how simple they are, seeing that no one is going the same route on consoles, and considering the fact that you really havent programmed for any game as far as i know, i would think you are the wrong person to be making such a comment.

You are the wrong person to be making the absurd assumption that you are making (that Forza 2 is somehow at the limit of possibilities).


you again miss the point, and reading further afront, you acknowledge the fact that gameplay reigns supreme over graphics, you may have the best looking game, but if it plays like crap, then there is very little enjoyment that comes form it, its like having the most beautiful girlfriend who at the end of the day has no substance, or quality, who thinks that beauty is enough.

You approach this as if Forza's gameplay is SO much better than Gran Turismo's (untrue) that it would be insane to even CARE for anything else. That's just delusional. Forza 2 isn't that great, as you imply, and GT isn't as bad as you imply.


practically speaking, i hope more and more devs would try and concentrate on the gameplay aspects before touching up the graphics, it would make for a great gen.

Both? No? I mean, I know you pretty much hasten to disagree with anything I say... but my first post on this thread very specifically notes that I don't want them to neglect the gameplay... I just really want them to deal with the problems... and the graphics for me is a major fault.

I find it much harder to enjoy the game purely because of the poor graphics and replays.


me too, and i have raised it before, but just like i want them, GT needs to get rid of the rubberband physics and get some greater physics in place, we are still talking trying to acheive reality, arent we?

Once again you act as if they are so far apart in gameplay... it's just not true Arthur.


yes

not as far off as most games are, and that, you have never seen

and you are pulling this information from?


nope, it is, i have played both in great length, in fact, i reached 66% of GT4 before i touched forza, the tuning in GT is as basic as it gets, and most of the time, once you insert an upgrade, it automatically sets itself and gives you better handling, in fact the only car i ever had to tune in GT was the pagani zonda. there are also no tuning options that are as deep, and varied, and whilst GT's tuning is more accesible because of its sheer
simplicity, it takes away the challenge and depth which is really needed.

'Sheer simplicity'? I almost can't comprehend how you can't see the fact that GT4 (getting fairly old now) tuning did comprise of at least 75% of all the tuning options in Forza 2!

I'm not claiming something ludicrous... but the way you describe GT's tuning is nothing short of a whitewash.


the online is okay, just depends on who you ar playing, a game cannot be okay in single and splitscreen then have the same options messed up online, those are few and far, most of the reviews pointed to it having a great online, i will take that word.

Since when have official reviews ever given a decent look at online? Most online faults appear after weeks, or months. You don't see any CoD4 reviews stating that the M16 is overpowered, do you?

If someone had told the reviewers that if anyone in your race drives a Lotus in class D, C, B, or A, you will lose unless they are completely ******ed.. they probably wouldn't have praised it... but these things take time to find out.

Forza's online, on the face of it is excellent, as I have written many times. It's clean, relatively fast, is laden with options... but it's missing on crucial features, and doesn't entice the right parts of the community.


that would depend on a lot of things that you arent telling people here, and we both know it. it would depend on suspension, stronger suspension would offer you more handling but the car would get dameged more easily, it would depend on the speed difference betweeen the two cars, higher differences leading to more damage. it would dependon the angle of impact, car type, weight, whether you have a lighter body kit, better parts, in other words, overall setting of the car. why arent you sharing all this? you try and generalize things that are over your understanding, and mine too as to how many variables are calculated before any of those things happen,

Firstly, it's somewhat doubtable whether it's really that complicated. In any case, I have very little confidence in Forza's damage modelling. You can have tiny crashes which will break your back wing, and large ones which do absolutely nothing. It's highly random, and always ends with the same scenario: You're screwed unless everyone else sucks.

Online, it's even more farcical... you can be taken out of a race by warping... you can have a collision where only one of the two cars is effected... you are consistently rear-ended by jerks...

The main thing wrong with Forza 2's online is that it doesn't enthuse more serious gamers to play it. The community creates a considerable amount of FM2's online problem.


the brute AI is an issue that needs to be addresed, just like having to win all races in a series for you to win the car

again, its the closest we have come to realism.

[quote]
weather i miss, pitting is the best in any console game to dae, cockpit view would be great, but it wont make or break a game, that is witnessed by the fact that there are geat racers that dont have the feature in this and past generations. qualifying would be great, but it doesnt bother me, i never qualify in any racing game. so it doesnt affect me.

50 laps on Laguna Seca with 6 other real people.. my car drives into the pit to be attended to by... absolutely no-one... and all the internal damage disappears and my fuel is replenished...

Yeh... that's right... all the pit options are disabled online... guess why?

because Turn10 seems to have no intention of making the online fully fledged. The online is over-run by all the wrong sorts of people. Exploiters. Cheats. Rammers. Griefers. People who just want a quick 3 lap race.

The leaderboards? Exactly the same.

You play the online and you'll see exactly what I dislike about Forza. The audience is like an arcade game.


larger grids would be great, but you missed the point that they had planned for a 12 car grid, i the end they couldnt hack it without sacrificing framerates, its a worthy sacrifice IMO

I didn't miss the point... I just fundamentally think it's not true. I struggle to believe that physics which are so fundamentally flawed.. and so blatantly overstated by so many cannot do the job.

GT5P's physics are a very close match to Forza's, and it achieves that with a grid of double the size?

Sounds like a win-win. If Forza's physics really damage the frame-rate so much when they add more cars, they need to start allocating the power more efficiently... because I don't find it worth it considering the results.


and its also true in real life, isnt it?

What, that cars which (barring their tuning setup) are intended to be performance-equals (ie. 850 Performance Index cars) have a discrepency in lap times of 5 seconds?

No. Actually it isn't. The tuning is great... until you realise that all the limits are made in a way which means that the tuning can get you only so far.


ever tried the car specific races with caps on power:idea:, you should, i know it exists, and im not even online:dunce. thats where tuning and better drivers thrive, you seem to have missed that

Oh great, let's go into the drop dead most boring single player ever so I can race against computers, and test my tuning skillz to the limit... but wait:

Confining my entire game into one very small corner of a game already lacking in content... with no online...

doesn't actually interest me.

I want to play ONLINE in a sim environment. None of this stuff exists online. You can create it... but actually getting enough people who want to do it together is almost impossible. Night52 (forum member here) tried to set it up, and it failed due to the lack of people, basically. Even then, the options are lacking and the races are decided by car more than skill.


and you finally get it

... You mean you finally read what I wrote? I guess that's similar.

[~NeonFire~]

I'm so hyped for Forza Motorsport 3. I loved the first two games..

[rhavec]

Peripheral support: No (The 360 doesn't support the G25 :()

Why does it need to support the G25 when the Microsoft 360 wheel is just as good?

[SoDev]

Why does it need to support the G25 when the Microsoft 360 wheel is just as good?

OMG, you better add the word value if bought used for $50 or somethings... G25 owners are going to hunt you down and rape you. They are freaks I tells you! This won't be good... :no

[Tetsu]

Frankly, I've raced the heck out of Gran Turismo 4. In fact, I've raced in it for 14 months almost straight, and have yet to do an enduro. The reasons being?


The driver view is perfect for me.
The 3D perspective is impeccably realistic.
The communication of the car to me is the best ever.
The immersion is the best of any game I've ever experienced.

And yes, I've done races over and over again. There are so many races, it's much harder to get tired of any Gran Turismo game over the much smaller Forza games. And it sure helps that the GT bots aren't murderous tards like they have in Forza 1 and online with the twerps you have to deal with. Now with Prologue, you have bots that behave quite a bit like actual track racers with manners.

If Turn 10 makes a Forza 3 that's a mildly tweaked Forza 2, and doesn't even incorporate the DLC into the single player game, they're going to have another big seller that's in the used bin in two months.

I know many earth kids are going to dispose of any Gran Turismo after a couple of months too, but a surprising number of us hold onto our games. I still have my GT2 game (two copies in fact) and will never sell it (them). Meanwhile, my bro has my XBox and Forza 1, and I'm cancelling of Live Gold.

[SixAxisRumble]

Frankly, I've raced the heck out of Gran Turismo 4. In fact, I've raced in it for 14 months almost straight, and have yet to do an enduro. The reasons being?


The driver view is perfect for me.
The 3D perspective is impeccably realistic.
The communication of the car to me is the best ever.
The immersion is the best of any game I've ever experienced.

And yes, I've done races over and over again. There are so many races, it's much harder to get tired of any Gran Turismo game over the much smaller Forza games. And it sure helps that the GT bots aren't murderous tards like they have in Forza 1 and online with the twerps you have to deal with. Now with Prologue, you have bots that behave quite a bit like actual track racers with manners.

If Turn 10 makes a Forza 3 that's a mildly tweaked Forza 2, and doesn't even incorporate the DLC into the single player game, they're going to have another big seller that's in the used bin in two months.

I know many earth kids are going to dispose of any Gran Turismo after a couple of months too, but a surprising number of us hold onto our games. I still have my GT2 game (two copies in fact) and will never sell it (them). Meanwhile, my bro has my XBox and Forza 1, and I'm cancelling of Live Gold.

The future is online gaming though, not playing by yourself!

[arthur]

So when Forza 3 has halfway-decent graphics (unlike Forza 2), and I quote this... will you accept the fact that Forza 2 is not actually the limit?i think all my posts were categorical that to date, forza 2 is closes to reality, to date.
when forza 3 actually releases, thats if it does, i will finally draw a conclusion, if GT 5 is better, i will say it, but that is a bridge i would rather cross when i get there

You say it's realistic, and yet... in GT4... you couldn't pile insane amounts of horsepower into a car and still have it easily drivable... in Forza? No problem.i could drive every car in GT 4 that i bought or won without a problem, so long as the upgrades were in place, with no tuning required, the only car i have ever tuned in GT is the pagani zonda, the rest of the time, swapping between parts is sufficient.

in forza however, its not enough to go on and get the part, additional tuning is needed to get the best out of the upgrade, in fact, if you add power without improving handling you get power speed in straight line moments but struggle with cornering, and the car will always feel generally unstable, it tallies with real life where racing teams always tune to try and get the best of their cars in any given track.

That's one of endless MASSIVE flaws in the 'realism'. From my, relatively short time with GT5P (although it does have some bizzare problems)... there is very little to pick between them in realism. They each have their problems. Thing is, the fact that Forza is the best out of .. one and a half games, doesn't mean as you imply that some ceiling has been found.until we get more serious physics in GT, there is no comparing the two, the has to be more than getting more cars and more tracks while the core gameplay never strives to get better even though its a game in the third console generation, i have seen more leaps and bounds in forza than i have seen in GT ever since GT2 all the way to GT5p, and thats the truth of the matter, you may not want to acknowledge it, but that the way it is, and thats the way it needs to be told

You are the wrong person to be making the absurd assumption that you are making (that Forza 2 is somehow at the limit of possibilities).nope, i said it is limitd by the hardware it is on, will devs get better, yes they will, but they will have only learnt how to better manage resources available to them, thats why games get better with every generation. right now, forza is the ceiling, its is the epitome of physics in a sim, and all sims should be about physics, but its a target that should be passed in the future. in other words, just like any game i expect it to get better with coming editions.

you misread and misunderstand what has clearly been spelt out

You approach this as if Forza's gameplay is SO much better than Gran Turismo's (untrue) that it would be insane to even CARE for anything else. That's just delusional. Forza 2 isn't that great, as you imply, and GT isn't as bad as you imply.to each his own, for me, i always wanted a sim that had damage, it was never there in GT, or sega GT, although there was a damage br in sega GT. i always wanted a racer where the A.I would be up to task, that would push me, i wanted races that i could remember and that i could repeat ime after time, that wasnt in GT, it was there in forza.

damage has never been present in GT, and truth of the matter is that if it were there, i would have never probably gotten the original forza, but forza strived to go beyond anythng that was there, and they made it all add up to give a great package.

was i into tuning? hell no, i wasnt, i wasnt even great at it while i started, but with time i learnt, i could pick up a car, test it and feel it, then know where to go on and what to change. when it came to races, it was sheer brilliance, not as much content, but more substance than i had ever seen.

when it came to pricing, it was better than GT where on upgrade was priced the same for all cars, e.g. suspension kit at 16000 cr, and the fact that car value did not depriciate wholesale the moment the car touched the track making it a total loss to sell, i could use garage cars without having them restricted to having no driving aids in arcade and multiplayer modes, and my list goes on and on.
for me, forza was a better racer, do i have my reasons? hell yes, and i have stated some from the top of my head, are they true, of course they are.

if you think GT is better, thats great, thats your opinion, and i cannot change that, GT is great, nobody disputed it is, just not anythig near where forza is IMO, and my tastes prove that, MY TASTES and desires


Both? No? I mean, I know you pretty much hasten to disagree with anything I say... but my first post on this thread very specifically notes that I don't want them to neglect the gameplay... I just really want them to deal with the problems... and the graphics for me is a major fault.if you say so, thats you, and many would like the game to look better, just not enough for them to want a gimped version


I find it much harder to enjoy the game purely because of the poor graphics and replays.

Once again you act as if they are so far apart in gameplay... it's just not true Arthur.replays are for you, basically, they arent that huge to me.

as for gameplay,they are similar, not the same, the distinguishing factors are what separate them

and you are pulling this information from?i thought this was information everybody knew, it has been there for the whole world to see.

example, i want to save money and get to a million dollars, each day ia want to save 10 bucks. now let us say i started yesterday, and i also saved the same amount today, am i far off the target? yes i am, but i am closer to that target today than i was yesterday.

thats where forza is at, while it strives to nail the physics, and gets better with each installment, most other titles dont offer the same in terms of advances, it is at the end of the day closer to the target than most games are.

stop trying too hard, lets leave the obvious as it is



'Sheer simplicity'? I almost can't comprehend how you can't see the fact that GT4 (getting fairly old now) tuning did comprise of at least 75% of all the tuning options in Forza 2!it has most of the features, how you implement them atthe end of the day is as simple as it gets, take for example balancing between acceleration and top speed, all you do is move the graph and the gears automatically pick it up. in forza you have to try and move the gears one at a time, lest when you look at the benchmark you get that you have not only lost top speed, but also lowered the acceleration you were yearning for. its like having semi cooked chicken and one that is well done, they are different

I'm not claiming something ludicrous... but the way you describe GT's tuning is nothing short of a whitewash.just gave one example

Since when have official reviews ever given a decent look at online? Most online faults appear after weeks, or months. You don't see any CoD4 reviews stating that the M16 is overpowered, do you?everytime i read a review at IGN, i see marks on presentation, graphics, gameplay, ONLINE, and replayability.

If someone had told the reviewers that if anyone in your race drives a Lotus in class D, C, B, or A, you will lose unless they are completely ******ed.. they probably wouldn't have praised it... but these things take time to find out.the last time i checked, fernando alonso was one of the best drivers in the world, he went back to renault which did not have that great handling, just like ralf schumackr in his toyota, they are great drivers yes, but their cars in in no way in the same league near the what the scudderia have, or mclaren. it happens in real life dude, its that simple, it would be a total ripoff to have a car like the corolla do the same as a subaru. wouldnt it? thats if they are running on the same upgrades

Forza's online, on the face of it is excellent, as I have written many times. It's clean, relatively fast, is laden with options... but it's missing on crucial features, and doesn't entice the right parts of the community.seems like you still havent gotten the fact that consoles and sims are that much diffrent, it does some things right, and in others it comes short. no game is ever perfect, and the problem is that you are constantly looking for perfection

Firstly, it's somewhat doubtable whether it's really that complicated. In any case, I have very little confidence in Forza's damage modelling. You can have tiny crashes which will break your back wing, and large ones which do absolutely nothing. It's highly random, and always ends with the same scenario: You're screwed unless everyone else sucks.have you made a game engine, or programmed? if you havent, then you are being a hypocrite, most of the games are nowadays made of anywhere btwn 100 - 200 programmers, exept rare cases like alan wake and project offset that have smaler teams, and are developed for anything between 2-3 years and sometimes more, i highly doubt it is as simplistic as you want it to seem.

no games damage modelling is great, people learn and get better, but at the end of the day, half loaf is better than nothing

Online, it's even more farcical... you can be taken out of a race by warping... you can have a collision where only one of the two cars is effected... you are consistently rear-ended by jerks...

The main thing wrong with Forza 2's online is that it doesn't enthuse more serious gamers to play it. The community creates a considerable amount of FM2's online problem.
wow, so its not the game?


50 laps on Laguna Seca with 6 other real people.. my car drives into the pit to be attended to by... absolutely no-one... and all the internal damage disappears and my fuel is replenished...

Yeh... that's right... all the pit options are disabled online... guess why? because Turn10 seems to have no intention of making the online fully fledged. The online is over-run by all the wrong sorts of people. Exploiters. Cheats. Rammers. Griefers. People who just want a quick 3 lap race. everybody esploits a games weaknesses to get and edge, i do it in tekken, GT, DOA, and every soccer game i have played, not to mention every single player game, thats the way it has been, thats the way it always wil be


You play the online and you'll see exactly what I dislike about Forza. The audience is like an arcade game.so its not the game, its the poeple you are playing, stop confusing the two. you seem to be doing it a lot



I didn't miss the point... I just fundamentally think it's not true. I struggle to believe that physics which are so fundamentally flawed.. and so blatantly overstated by so many cannot do the job.

GT5P's physics are a very close match to Forza's, and it achieves that with a grid of double the size?again, lets leav the obvious speak, and the speculation out.
hitting a car and getting no damage or scrapes =/= the opposite
hitting a barrier at high speed and getting off scot free =/= opposite
pin point engine reading every change in tuning =/= engine that offers less
great A.I =/= dumb A.I that thinks saving tyres will get you further

Sounds like a win-win. If Forza's physics really damage the frame-rate so much when they add more cars, they need to start allocating the power more efficiently... because I don't find it worth it considering the results.better A.I, better physics, better gameplay is btter that better graphics, good gameplay, and physics i dont expect to see in a sim this generation


What, that cars which (barring their tuning setup) are intended to be performance-equals (ie. 850 Performance Index cars) have a discrepency in lap times of 5 seconds?we have cars out there in the world that have more hosrepower and less top speed acceleration and handling due to the chasis, check out the aston martins and the porsches that are in the same class, astons have a margin in power but lose out in handling and are hence slower, thats from a top gear episode fron 2 or 3 years back when they actually comapred the two, cant remember the models. so it does happen in real life

No. Actually it isn't. The tuning is great... until you realise that all the limits are made in a way which means that the tuning can get you only so far.
and in real life, tuning only gets you so far, :dunce


Oh great, let's go into the drop dead most boring single player ever so I can race against computers, and test my tuning skillz to the limit... but wait:

Confining my entire game into one very small corner of a game already lacking in content... with no online...

doesn't actually interest me.

I want to play ONLINE in a sim environment. None of this stuff exists online. You can create it... but actually getting enough people who want to do it together is almost impossible. Night52 (forum member here) tried to set it up, and it failed due to the lack of people, basically. Even then, the options are lacking and the races are decided by car more than skill.



... You mean you finally read what I wrote? I guess that's similar.[/quote]

[Xaor]

i think all my posts were categorical that to date, forza 2 is closes to reality, to date.
when forza 3 actually releases, thats if it does, i will finally draw a conclusion, if GT 5 is better, i will say it, but that is a bridge i would rather cross when i get there

Until then you'll just keep going on your endless, and quite frankly untrue bashing of GT's physics?


i could drive every car in GT 4 that i bought or won without a problem, so long as the upgrades were in place, with no tuning required, the only car i have ever tuned in GT is the pagani zonda, the rest of the time, swapping between parts is sufficient.

Try turning the assists off... There is no car in Forza that wasn't easy to drive... until you turn the assists off. It's the same with GT.

Obviously, actually turning the assists off with that controller was suicidal.


in forza however, its not enough to go on and get the part, additional tuning is needed to get the best out of the upgrade, in fact, if you add power without improving handling you get power speed in straight line moments but struggle with cornering, and the car will always feel generally unstable, it tallies with real life where racing teams always tune to try and get the best of their cars in any given track.

Exactly the same in GT, I'm afraid. You could always get lots more out of a car by tuning it. Always.

The only reason you wouldn't have to is if you constantly took cars to events which were better than the opponent cars, which is a problem plaguing both games.

until we get more serious physics in GT,

You have got to be kidding. Are you some kind of judge of these things? You act as if you have some kind of awesome proof that GT5 has NFS-style physics, no matter how much people state that you are completely wrong!


there is no comparing the two, the has to be more than getting more cars and more tracks while the core gameplay never strives to get better even though its a game in the third console generation,

Oh my God. Where do you actually pull this information from?


i have seen more leaps and bounds in forza than i have seen in GT ever since GT2 all the way to GT5p, and thats the truth of the matter, you may not want to acknowledge it, but that the way it is, and thats the way it needs to be told

Then you are blind. The differences between GT3 and GT4 on their own were HUGE.


nope, i said it is limitd by the hardware it is on, will devs get better, yes they will, but they will have only learnt how to better manage resources available to them, thats why games get better with every generation. right now, forza is the ceiling, its is the epitome of physics in a sim, and all sims should be about physics, but its a target that should be passed in the future. in other words, just like any game i expect it to get better with coming editions.

Once again, I'm really struggling to even keep up with how deluded you are about... pretty much everything. Forza 2 is NOWHERE NEAR the ceiling. You are pulling this information, and I mean quite literally almost everything you say out of thin air.

You just stated that Forza is 'the epitome of physics in a sim'... :lol::lol::lol::lol:

As Forza 3 is likely to be released soon, and Che Chou has implied that it's visually, and performance wise way beyond what they ever believed they could do with the XBOX360, will you then accept that your beloved game isn't the ceiling.


you misread and misunderstand what has clearly been spelt out

to each his own, for me, i always wanted a sim that had damage, it was never there in GT, or sega GT, although there was a damage br in sega GT. i always wanted a racer where the A.I would be up to task, that would push me, i wanted races that i could remember and that i could repeat ime after time, that wasnt in GT, it was there in forza.

You can repeat races in GT time after time, you just don't want to. Some of the races in GT5P are so hard according to my friend that he can't get close, and this is echoed across the GTPLANET forums.


damage has never been present in GT, and truth of the matter is that if it were there, i would have never probably gotten the original forza, but forza strived to go beyond anythng that was there, and they made it all add up to give a great package.

You're right, damage has never been present in GT (though it is SAID to be coming which should be interesting).. but the damage in Forza is still the worst damage in any game that I've ever seen... obviously some is better than none in this case, but still.


was i into tuning? hell no, i wasnt, i wasnt even great at it while i started, but with time i learnt, i could pick up a car, test it and feel it, then know where to go on and what to change. when it came to races, it was sheer brilliance, not as much content, but more substance than i had ever seen.

when it came to pricing, it was better than GT where on upgrade was priced the same for all cars, e.g. suspension kit at 16000 cr, and the fact that car value did not depriciate wholesale the moment the car touched the track making it a total loss to sell, i could use garage cars without having them restricted to having no driving aids in arcade and multiplayer modes, and my list goes on and on.
for me, forza was a better racer, do i have my reasons? hell yes, and i have stated some from the top of my head, are they true, of course they are.

Yes, Forza has some great things in it, I've never stated otherwise... (as note, I'm 100% sure you could choose whether you used driving aids or not in the 'arcade' on GT4 on any of your own cars).


if you think GT is better, thats great, thats your opinion, and i cannot change that, GT is great, nobody disputed it is, just not anythig near where forza is IMO, and my tastes prove that, MY TASTES and desires

That's the thing which is so funny Arthur, I have never stated that I think GT is better, or that I even prefer it as a game. You argue with me as if I am the devil incarnate, as your life depends with it... and yet you really seem to lose sight over what you are arguing about.


if you say so, thats you, and many would like the game to look better, just not enough for them to want a gimped version

Again, when did I say I wanted a gimped version?


replays are for you, basically, they arent that huge to me.

Right... terribly sorry that I even said that considering I somehow should have read your mind to realise that of course you don't care about replays...


as for gameplay,they are similar, not the same, the distinguishing factors are what separate them

Yes... and to be honest, even though you deny this totally... GT has numerous bits of its engine RIGHT where Forza has it wrong.


i thought this was information everybody knew, it has been there for the whole world to see.

example, i want to save money and get to a million dollars, each day ia want to save 10 bucks. now let us say i started yesterday, and i also saved the same amount today, am i far off the target? yes i am, but i am closer to that target today than i was yesterday.

thats where forza is at, while it strives to nail the physics, and gets better with each installment, most other titles dont offer the same in terms of advances, it is at the end of the day closer to the target than most games are.

Yeh... Forza 1 -> 2 was known as one of the biggest advances in history wasn't it :roll:

GT3 -> 4 was a big change. GT4 -> 5P was also a big change (though I haven't played 5P much)


it has most of the features, how you implement them atthe end of the day is as simple as it gets, take for example balancing between acceleration and top speed, all you do is move the graph and the gears automatically pick it up. in forza you have to try and move the gears one at a time, lest when you look at the benchmark you get that you have not only lost top speed, but also lowered the acceleration you were yearning for. its like having semi cooked chicken and one that is well done, they are different

In GT you had total control with the gears, in exactly the same way you did in Forza. GT allowed tuning noobs to do it easily, admittedly, but not with the same control you had in the tuning sections in GT and Forza where you can adjust each individual gear.


just gave one example

everytime i read a review at IGN, i see marks on presentation, graphics, gameplay, ONLINE, and replayability.

Find me IGN's Call of Duty 4 review where it says that the M16 is overpowered. Did you even read what I said? I was specifically stating that the problem with 'online reviews' is they never see what the community does to the game with the way they play, or balance.

FIFA 08, on the face of it is a great online game with great features... but in reality it's got massive problems... exploits... overpowered teams.


the last time i checked, fernando alonso was one of the best drivers in the world, he went back to renault which did not have that great handling, just like ralf schumackr in his toyota, they are great drivers yes, but their cars in in no way in the same league near the what the scudderia have, or mclaren. it happens in real life dude, its that simple, it would be a total ripoff to have a car like the corolla do the same as a subaru. wouldnt it? thats if they are running on the same upgrades

Do you even know what the performance index was intended to do... or are you just defending your game ad nauseum because... that's what you do?

The Performance Index system was intended to mean that, barring the differences in tuning, two cars with 850 PI would be performance equals, or at least very close. That, in the beloved Forza 2 IS NOT TRUE. It's MILES off true. We're talking EPIC amounts of time.


seems like you still havent gotten the fact that consoles and sims are that much diffrent, it does some things right, and in others it comes short. no game is ever perfect, and the problem is that you are constantly looking for perfection

No, the problem is that you are consistently overlooking it. As long as you're consistent, I wouldn't have a proble with it, but you aren't consistent at all. You barely even read what I'm writing most of the times which is why almost every reply you write is like one long non-sequiter.


have you made a game engine, or programmed? if you havent, then you are being a hypocrite, most of the games are nowadays made of anywhere btwn 100 - 200 programmers, exept rare cases like alan wake and project offset that have smaler teams, and are developed for anything between 2-3 years and sometimes more, i highly doubt it is as simplistic as you want it to seem.
no games damage modelling is great, people learn and get better, but at the end of the day, half loaf is better than nothing

I've done a moderate amount of programming. I'm only 17. In any case, it isn't like decent damage modelling is uncharted territory. If it were, then maybe, just maybe you could accuse me of being a hypocrite.


everybody esploits a games weaknesses to get and edge, i do it in tekken, GT, DOA, and every soccer game i have played, not to mention every single player game, thats the way it has been, thats the way it always wil be

You're wrong, actually. Not everyone does exploit problems in games. I don't. I try to stay away from the cheating and exploiting. The only time I've ever used the M16 in CoD4 (if you've nver played, it's absolutely unbelievably overpowered) except when I was experimenting a bit with it so I could build teh case to attempt to get it nerfed.


so its not the game, its the poeple you are playing, stop confusing the two. you seem to be doing it a lot

Wrong. The game has the loopholes, it's the games fault. It can be expected, accepted, and forgivable to some extent... Forza goes way past that extent, as do most games. It isn't hard to prevent the problems... it's a crucial part of the game design. If the developers were naive enough to believe that the faults wouldn't be exploited, and that it would ruin the game, then it's their fault.


again, lets leav the obvious speak, and the speculation out.
hitting a car and getting no damage or scrapes =/= the opposite
hitting a barrier at high speed and getting off scot free =/= opposite
pin point engine reading every change in tuning =/= engine that offers less
great A.I =/= dumb A.I that thinks saving tyres will get you further

Lol. Talk about spin. The only major advantage Forza 2 has over GT5P is the damage... that's just the way it is.


better A.I, better physics, better gameplay is btter that better graphics, good gameplay, and physics i dont expect to see in a sim this generation

That depends entirely on how much 'better' is in each case, actually...


we have cars out there in the world that have more hosrepower and less top speed acceleration and handling due to the chasis, check out the aston martins and the porsches that are in the same class, astons have a margin in power but lose out in handling and are hence slower, thats from a top gear episode fron 2 or 3 years back when they actually comapred the two, cant remember the models. so it does happen in real life


I've already said this, but maybe you won't miss it if I write it twice....

Do you even know what the performance index was intended to do... or are you just defending your game ad nauseum because... that's what you do?

The Performance Index system was intended to mean that, barring the differences in tuning, two cars with 850 PI would be performance equals, or at least very close. That, in the beloved Forza 2 IS NOT TRUE. It's MILES off true. We're talking EPIC amounts of time.

[Tetsu]

The future is online gaming though, not playing by yourself!
Now that's a heavily loaded opinion. By that I don't mean online gaming is lame per se, although in some cases, online gamers are utter and complete tards. I'd never touch another Forza "at random" server ever again, and with GT5P, I'll end up looking for groups either here or from GT Planet.

However, offline gaming will never die, and it will only be lame if developers decide to just forget about it like EA encouraged DICE to do with Battlefield 2, which was pretty limp. It could have been an excellent offline game.

GT5P is a very good offline game. Contrary to what arthur spams about Forza ad harfium, the bots in Prologue do drive like beings who care about their cars, and don't think that tearing theirs up to squeeze by is a great tactic, unlike with Forza.

I do want to play online, as it is fun to compete with real live humans, and in some ways it's more of a challenge. However, I also want to explore Kazunori-dono's vision expressed in the single player game, and many of us do. Also, many of the gamers here on Earth don't have broadband. Offline single player games will always be important.

Forza 3 had better be darn good and bug free, and offer a garage which can hold more than 350 cars! GT5P is making me darn happy, and it's just a prologue.

[convulsion]

Gran Turismo is King in the driving category. What is this Forza you speak of?

[shaka]

Does it have a chance agaisnt GT5? Will the graphics be able to hold up against the might of GT5?

Discuss

The last 2 forza games sucked so much i dont think they even stand a chance againts Grid.

the guys who make forza game obviously dont have that passion for cars like Kazunori Yamauchi the creator of the legendary Gran Turismo.

[arthur]

Until then you'll just keep going on your endless, and quite frankly untrue bashing of GT's physics?i have given the reasons behind my reasoning, i think its is time you gave the reasons behind yours.
this bashing of my comments with nothing behind it is getting rather boring, dont you think so?

Try turning the assists off... There is no car in Forza that wasn't easy to drive... until you turn the assists off. It's the same with GT. every car in forza i have driven was hard to drive, i have had to tune each and every one of them to get the desired results, every car bar one in GT has been easy to drive, no tuning needed on my part, there is a difference.
in one, the car performs, on the other tuning is needed in order to get the performance

Exactly the same in GT, I'm afraid. You could always get lots more out of a car by tuning it. Always. you get it wrong again, read and understand, what i have written is as simple as it gets

The only reason you wouldn't have to is if you constantly took cars to events which were better than the opponent cars, which is a problem plaguing both games.i was driving cars that were below what other cars were, try racing a skyline in a race that includes the TVR cerbera speed 12, and the chrysler prototype in class S, and see how hard it is. thats one example, there are more.

You have got to be kidding. Are you some kind of judge of these things? You act as if you have some kind of awesome proof that GT5 has NFS-style physics, no matter how much people state that you are completely wrong!you see, the thing with you is you say, i have given my reasons behind my reasoning, you havent faulted any, in fact, you read and dont reply to those sections, only to raise the point again and again, why dont you give some points as to why i am wrong? why not counter my reasoning?



Oh my God. Where do you actually pull this information from?you really need help



Then you are blind. The differences between GT3 and GT4 on their own were HUGE.no they werent, the cars handle pretty much the same, there were track redesigns in places like deep forest, and midfeild among a few, but by and large, its the same A.I, same driving tests, only with more events and more cars and tracks. i have played both more than any other sim, including forza.



Once again, I'm really struggling to even keep up with how deluded you are about... pretty much everything. Forza 2 is NOWHERE NEAR the ceiling. You are pulling this information, and I mean quite literally almost everything you say out of thin air. no, you are, you complain, the info is there, not from gamers, but reviewers and developers, read on, you will get it in a few quotes

You just stated that Forza is 'the epitome of physics in a sim'... :lol::lol::lol::lol:and it will come, read on

As Forza 3 is likely to be released soon, and Che Chou has implied that it's visually, and performance wise way beyond what they ever believed they could do with the XBOX360, will you then accept that your beloved game isn't the ceiling.wow, people have a hard time understanding this term " to date", dont they? i have explained that in every post in this thread, and you guys still dont get it



You can repeat races in GT time after time, you just don't want to. Some of the races in GT5P are so hard according to my friend that he can't get close, and this is echoed across the GTPLANET forums.i never said you couldnt, i gave the reason that it wasnt challenging, which is a proven fact, and i thought i said GT4, where did you pull GT5p from?:sad:



You're right, damage has never been present in GT (though it is SAID to be coming which should be interesting).. but the damage in Forza is still the worst damage in any game that I've ever seen... obviously some is better than none in this case, but still.read on, you will get it in a few



Yes, Forza has some great things in it, I've never stated otherwise... (as note, I'm 100% sure you could choose whether you used driving aids or not in the 'arcade' on GT4 on any of your own cars).that option is locked, go try it. the cars will handle different from how they do in GT mode, lots of tyre locking, and skidding that never happens in GT mode, its a whole inconsistency.



That's the thing which is so funny Arthur, I have never stated that I think GT is better, or that I even prefer it as a game. You argue with me as if I am the devil incarnate, as your life depends with it... and yet you really seem to lose sight over what you are arguing about.
do a google search on the term "IF", iam am sure it will give some interesting answers, after that look at the comment you quoted and commented on, read and comprehend, then get back to me. coz this is getting lame


Again, when did I say I wanted a gimped version?reading and comprehending is becoming a problem i think, you never said anything, i did, and i said better gameplay is better than improvements in other dpartments with lowered gameplay.



Right... terribly sorry that I even said that considering I somehow should have read your mind to realise that of course you don't care about replays...understandable



Yes... and to be honest, even though you deny this totally... GT has numerous bits of its engine RIGHT where Forza has it wrong. GT4 in the framerates department, other than that, nothing really that comes to mind



Yeh... Forza 1 -> 2 was known as one of the biggest advances in history wasn't it :roll:in customization, gameplay, and physics, yes

GT3 -> 4 was a big change. GT4 -> 5P was also a big change (though I haven't played 5P much)give examples, not a bad idea is it, debates are made on points made, and proven, you dont seem to have grasped that



In GT you had total control with the gears, in exactly the same way you did in Forza. GT allowed tuning noobs to do it easily, admittedly, but not with the same control you had in the tuning sections in GT and Forza where you can adjust each individual gear.wow, way to go, how does that counter anything i said?



Find me IGN's Call of Duty 4 review where it says that the M16 is overpowered. Did you even read what I said? I was specifically stating that the problem with 'online reviews' is they never see what the community does to the game with the way they play, or balance. and again, you misunderstood, read and understand

FIFA 08, on the face of it is a great online game with great features... but in reality it's got massive problems... exploits... overpowered teams.it proves its like any other game, not perfect


Do you even know what the performance index was intended to do... or are you just defending your game ad nauseum because... that's what you do?i give my reasons, and you havent proven any of them wrong, now have you?

The Performance Index system was intended to mean that, barring the differences in tuning, two cars with 850 PI would be performance equals, or at least very close. That, in the beloved Forza 2 IS NOT TRUE. It's MILES off true. We're talking EPIC amounts of time.no they wouldnt, i think i gave you a perfect example, two in fact from F1, and a porsche/asto martin scenario, thats is understandable, why you dont get it still leaves me bewildered



No, the problem is that you are consistently overlooking it. As long as you're consistent, I wouldn't have a proble with it, but you aren't consistent at all. You barely even read what I'm writing most of the times which is why almost every reply you write is like one long non-sequiter.probe all you want, i have been as consistent as it gets, on the other hand, i have shown you to be inconsistent.



I've done a moderate amount of programming. I'm only 17. In any case, it isn't like decent damage modelling is uncharted territory. If it were, then maybe, just maybe you could accuse me of being a hypocrite.when i was in primary school, thats what they call it here, i did science, that evolved in high school, and i did biochem at university. if you were to as me how it has evolved, i would tell you now that i know more than i did when i was learning, because i have out it in practice. but what i will tell you is that the more i have learnt, the more questions i have left unanswered, the more i see i need to know. the more i read, the more i see things i dont know, if you were to ask me to come up with certain ideas, i wouldnt know how, but i know how they are used.

fast forward to you, you have done programming, no big deal, i have a sister who has a degree in computer science, and she could teach me the basics, what you fail to understand is that you have done so little, that it matters or counts for nothing in the bigger picture e.g. i knew a friend who programmed a lot, he knew a lot of stuff from game engines, how they worked, to dev kits, was he a game coder? hell no, he was trying to get his XBLA title published, and although he had written code for years, he admitted that he still did not have what it takes to be a full fledged game coder.

to you, you have coded for two years tops i am guessing, and thats one the higher side, these guys have been doing it for years, some for as long as 10 - 15 years, they have seen advancements in gaming, and made advancements, and you think that your limited coding makes or has you knowing a lot. dont be naive

as for damage modelling, please try and look up how many CPU cycles it takes for you to do it, and tie up that to the fact that in forza, its tied to you steering, drivetrain, body, suspension, and other variables, all those have to be calculated in split seconds to give a response to damage and its effects on handling taking into consideration car type, settings and upgrades amonfg a plethora of other factors i dont have the time to get into. is that engine as simple as you are trying to make it seem? hell no



You're wrong, actually. Not everyone does exploit problems in games. I don't. I try to stay away from the cheating and exploiting. The only time I've ever used the M16 in CoD4 (if you've nver played, it's absolutely unbelievably overpowered) except when I was experimenting a bit with it so I could build teh case to attempt to get it nerfed.people exploit games and the way they are designed, you do it, to



Wrong. The game has the loopholes, it's the games fault. It can be expected, accepted, and forgivable to some extent... Forza goes way past that extent, as do most games. It isn't hard to prevent the problems... it's a crucial part of the game design. If the developers were naive enough to believe that the faults wouldn't be exploited, and that it would ruin the game, then it's their fault.
no game is perfect, each game has its loopholes, i have seen it in all gam,es i play


Lol. Talk about spin. The only major advantage Forza 2 has over GT5P is the damage... that's just the way it is.not so if you read and understand what i post, is it?



That depends entirely on how much 'better' is in each case, actually...




I've already said this, but maybe you won't miss it if I write it twice....

Do you even know what the performance index was intended to do... or are you just defending your game ad nauseum because... that's what you do?

The Performance Index system was intended to mean that, barring the differences in tuning, two cars with 850 PI would be performance equals, or at least very close. That, in the beloved Forza 2 IS NOT TRUE. It's MILES off true. We're talking EPIC amounts of time.
saying it twice doesnt make it true, does it? i have given you perfect examples, you chose not to reply to them, you merely sidestepped them as you do in whole chunks of your replies, i on the other hand have tried to reply to everything you have written, agreeing and disagreeing, your age is deeply showing in your responses, dont take it personally, but please, please, respond to the issues i have raised.
give the resoning behind your opinion, and examples, it makes for better debate, this you are wrong, you are wrong claims with nothing behind it is childish, and thats for lack of a better term

[Tetsu]

every car in forza i have driven was hard to drive, i have had to tune each and every one of them to get the desired results, every car bar one in GT has been easy to drive, no tuning needed on my part, there is a difference. in one, the car performs, on the other tuning is needed in order to get the performance
There's a problem with that paragraph. Cars are not hard to drive. And if you have any racing sense at all, cars are not hard to race. Likewise, cars perform because of the way they are built, not how they are tuned. Tuning by definition only brings out a measure of better performance. If you tune a car - NOT upgrade, and it blows away an untuned version, your physics are off.


Then you are blind. The differences between GT3 and GT4 on their own were HUGE.
no they werent, the cars handle pretty much the same...i have played both more than any other sim, including forza.
Then your memory is shoddy. The mid-engined cars like the Lotus Esprit and Toyota MR2 drove like front engined cars in GT3. I loved them dearly. In GT4, they were still a delight to drive, but you had to finally watch your cornering and keep some power applied, or your tail would start to swing round. Likewise, front drive cars like the Hondas drove very much like rear drive cars in GT3. While GT4 was only a slight improvement towards realism, it was progress.


Yeh... Forza 1 -> 2 was known as one of the biggest advances in history wasn't it :roll:
in customization, gameplay, and physics, yes
In physics, yes. In the other two... sorry. I own both, and saw no difference. Well, except for the fact that MS finally offered a rather questionable force feedback wheel controller, so Forza 2 gameplay was much more GT-like. However, my $150 wheel broke after only two months...

Looks like the same old arthur. ;)

Frankly, I don't think I needed to post this since Xaor really did nail you on several points, artie. But I think he's done with you. I, however, need to fire up a synthesizer...

[convulsion]

i have given the reasons behind my reasoning, i think its is time you gave the reasons behind yours.
this bashing of my comments with nothing behind it is getting rather boring, dont you think so?
every car in forza i have driven was hard to drive, i have had to tune each and every one of them to get the desired results, every car bar one in GT has been easy to drive, no tuning needed on my part, there is a difference.
in one, the car performs, on the other tuning is needed in order to get the performance

you get it wrong again, read and understand, what i have written is as simple as it gets

i was driving cars that were below what other cars were, try racing a skyline in a race that includes the TVR cerbera speed 12, and the chrysler prototype in class S, and see how hard it is. thats one example, there are more.

you see, the thing with you is you say, i have given my reasons behind my reasoning, you havent faulted any, in fact, you read and dont reply to those sections, only to raise the point again and again, why dont you give some points as to why i am wrong? why not counter my reasoning?



you really need help


no they werent, the cars handle pretty much the same, there were track redesigns in places like deep forest, and midfeild among a few, but by and large, its the same A.I, same driving tests, only with more events and more cars and tracks. i have played both more than any other sim, including forza.



no, you are, you complain, the info is there, not from gamers, but reviewers and developers, read on, you will get it in a few quotes
and it will come, read on

wow, people have a hard time understanding this term " to date", dont they? i have explained that in every post in this thread, and you guys still dont get it



i never said you couldnt, i gave the reason that it wasnt challenging, which is a proven fact, and i thought i said GT4, where did you pull GT5p from?:sad:


read on, you will get it in a few



that option is locked, go try it. the cars will handle different from how they do in GT mode, lots of tyre locking, and skidding that never happens in GT mode, its a whole inconsistency.


do a google search on the term "IF", iam am sure it will give some interesting answers, after that look at the comment you quoted and commented on, read and comprehend, then get back to me. coz this is getting lame

reading and comprehending is becoming a problem i think, you never said anything, i did, and i said better gameplay is better than improvements in other dpartments with lowered gameplay.



understandable


GT4 in the framerates department, other than that, nothing really that comes to mind


in customization, gameplay, and physics, yes

give examples, not a bad idea is it, debates are made on points made, and proven, you dont seem to have grasped that



wow, way to go, how does that counter anything i said?



and again, you misunderstood, read and understand
it proves its like any other game, not perfect

i give my reasons, and you havent proven any of them wrong, now have you?
no they wouldnt, i think i gave you a perfect example, two in fact from F1, and a porsche/asto martin scenario, thats is understandable, why you dont get it still leaves me bewildered


probe all you want, i have been as consistent as it gets, on the other hand, i have shown you to be inconsistent.



when i was in primary school, thats what they call it here, i did science, that evolved in high school, and i did biochem at university. if you were to as me how it has evolved, i would tell you now that i know more than i did when i was learning, because i have out it in practice. but what i will tell you is that the more i have learnt, the more questions i have left unanswered, the more i see i need to know. the more i read, the more i see things i dont know, if you were to ask me to come up with certain ideas, i wouldnt know how, but i know how they are used.

fast forward to you, you have done programming, no big deal, i have a sister who has a degree in computer science, and she could teach me the basics, what you fail to understand is that you have done so little, that it matters or counts for nothing in the bigger picture e.g. i knew a friend who programmed a lot, he knew a lot of stuff from game engines, how they worked, to dev kits, was he a game coder? hell no, he was trying to get his XBLA title published, and although he had written code for years, he admitted that he still did not have what it takes to be a full fledged game coder.

to you, you have coded for two years tops i am guessing, and thats one the higher side, these guys have been doing it for years, some for as long as 10 - 15 years, they have seen advancements in gaming, and made advancements, and you think that your limited coding makes or has you knowing a lot. dont be naive

as for damage modelling, please try and look up how many CPU cycles it takes for you to do it, and tie up that to the fact that in forza, its tied to you steering, drivetrain, body, suspension, and other variables, all those have to be calculated in split seconds to give a response to damage and its effects on handling taking into consideration car type, settings and upgrades amonfg a plethora of other factors i dont have the time to get into. is that engine as simple as you are trying to make it seem? hell no


people exploit games and the way they are designed, you do it, to



no game is perfect, each game has its loopholes, i have seen it in all gam,es i play


not so if you read and understand what i post, is it?



saying it twice doesnt make it true, does it? i have given you perfect examples, you chose not to reply to them, you merely sidestepped them as you do in whole chunks of your replies, i on the other hand have tried to reply to everything you have written, agreeing and disagreeing, your age is deeply showing in your responses, dont take it personally, but please, please, respond to the issues i have raised.
give the resoning behind your opinion, and examples, it makes for better debate, this you are wrong, you are wrong claims with nothing behind it is childish, and thats for lack of a better term

Wow, you're one sad individual. Gran Turismo is miles ahead of any driving simulator.,and that's not just my opinion. Forza is not revolutionary. It's just a wannabe. That fails in the process. Sorta like yourself ,and your single meaningless opinion.

[Xaor]

i have given the reasons behind my reasoning, i think its is time you gave the reasons behind yours.
this bashing of my comments with nothing behind it is getting rather boring, dont you think so?


I'm just merely picking out anything you say which is untrue, and saying it. If you want to know what I believe? I told you.

You replied to what I said, either making excuses for it, or disagreeing with it.

Which is fine... it's just, everything I wrote is infallible opinion, and I didn't even bring GT into this.


every car in forza i have driven was hard to drive, i have had to tune each and every one of them to get the desired results, every car bar one in GT has been easy to drive, no tuning needed on my part, there is a difference.
in one, the car performs, on the other tuning is needed in order to get the performance

As Tetsu says, cars aren't 'hard' to drive, and to be honest, Forza cars aren't 'hard' to drive. Hard to master yes, but not hard to drive, and it's the same with any racing game, no matter how arcade.


you get it wrong again, read and understand, what i have written is as simple as it gets

Sorry, I think I read your post pretty exactly. You were stating that you had to tune in Forza to make the most of the car and it's parts.. which was true in GT as well.


i was driving cars that were below what other cars were, try racing a skyline in a race that includes the TVR cerbera speed 12, and the chrysler prototype in class S, and see how hard it is. thats one example, there are more.

... As you could potentially have had the Skyline in the S class, or U class, and the TVR is truly a very hard car to drive...?

[quuote]
you see, the thing with you is you say, i have given my reasons behind my reasoning, you havent faulted any, in fact, you read and dont reply to those sections, only to raise the point again and again, why dont you give some points as to why i am wrong? why not counter my reasoning?[/quote]

I have found fault with a lot of your reasoning, and will continue to do so. I didn't really think that I had neglected any parts of your replies, but maybe I have, in which case, sorry.


you really need help

I won't be drawn into insulting you Arthur, what I will say is that you seriously need to seperate opinions, and fact.

My opinion is that the difference between GT3, and 4, and 4 and 5P, are considerable. You imply that nothing has changed. I'm not going to continually argue that point back and forth because, frankly, I'm not changing my mind, and you aren't changing yours.


no they werent, the cars handle pretty much the same, there were track redesigns in places like deep forest, and midfeild among a few, but by and large, its the same A.I, same driving tests, only with more events and more cars and tracks. i have played both more than any other sim, including forza.

Frankly, and I may have been alone on this, I found the transition from GT3 to 4 quite tough purely because it had changed quite a lot. Certain types of car, as Tetsu says, changed a lot.


no, you are, you complain, the info is there, not from gamers, but reviewers and developers, read on, you will get it in a few quotes
and it will come, read on

wow, people have a hard time understanding this term " to date", dont they? i have explained that in every post in this thread, and you guys still dont get it

No, what I don't get is how you can think it is somehow anywhere near a peer to any PC sim. Obviously, you probably don't mean that, but anyway.

Between GT5P and Forza 2, I'd struggle to pick. I'm no expert, but I've played a good deal of PC sims (currently my computer really isn't up to them) and I don't think either of them are significantly better than the other in core gameplay.


i never said you couldnt, i gave the reason that it wasnt challenging, which is a proven fact, and i thought i said GT4, where did you pull GT5p from?:sad:

GT4 wasn't that challenging, I'll agree with that. As GT5P seems to have resolved that really well... I thought I'd draw your attention to that.

that option is locked, go try it. the cars will handle different from how they do in GT mode, lots of tyre locking, and skidding that never happens in GT mode, its a whole inconsistency.

You may be right, I can't go and find out now, sold my PS2 about 2 months ago, along with GT4. I don't remember having that problem, personally.


do a google search on the term "IF", iam am sure it will give some interesting answers, after that look at the comment you quoted and commented on, read and comprehend, then get back to me. coz this is getting lame

It's not dependant on whether you stated whether you believed I preferred GT or Forza, it's about the way you argue with me. It's the idea that I'm somehow denying your opinion, or that I want to hear your opinion repeated again, and again, and again, as if it somehow disproves my opinion.

reading and comprehending is becoming a problem i think, you never said anything, i did, and i said better gameplay is better than improvements in other dpartments with lowered gameplay.

As with above, whether you were implying that I wanted that or not, I don't get why you are telling me this. Why are you stating all this stuff?

No-one wants a gimped version, I don't think anyone implied that they did... I mean, great, your statement is true.. but why do we need to extend this discussion into even MORE mini-quotes than it already has?!

GT4 in the framerates department, other than that, nothing really that comes to mind

That's your opinion, and I'm not going to try and change it.


in customization, gameplay, and physics, yes

I disagree, but there you go. Physics yes... the rest? No. The online would strike me as the biggest step forward, even though there were some simultaneous step backs.


give examples, not a bad idea is it, debates are made on points made, and proven, you dont seem to have grasped that

My examples are opinionated, you know that.

My perception is that the way the cars model weight change effects the car has improved massively.

Probably the main change is the fact that thanks to the triggers on the controllers, you can realistically drive without the ABS and TCS on like in Forza.


wow, way to go, how does that counter anything i said?

It counters perfectly your huge implication that in Forza had specific gear editting when in fact the feature is in Gran Turismo 4.

[qute]
and again, you misunderstood, read and understand[/quote]

I'm sorry? You completely neglected the fact that I was showing, which was that reviews never get down to things which can actually ruin the online in a game. What makes a truly great online game is not having those faults, or to mitigate them as much as possible.

Forza 2 has two very painful ones.


it proves its like any other game, not perfect

There are grades of imperfection Arthur.. (are you getting deja vu?)


i give my reasons, and you havent proven any of them wrong, now have you?

If you say so. I'd personally say that I'd proven a great deal of them wrong.


no they wouldnt, i think i gave you a perfect example, two in fact from F1, and a porsche/asto martin scenario, thats is understandable, why you dont get it still leaves me bewildered

Why you don't get the entire point of the PI system is what leaves me bewildered Arthur. We are not talking about a stock Porsche and a stock Aston Martin, we are talking about the individual cars being upgraded to the same level PI, which is MEANT to mean they are performance equals.

As for the F1.. well the R class cars in the games aren't quite equal either.


probe all you want, i have been as consistent as it gets, on the other hand, i have shown you to be inconsistent.

I can't really take that seriously. We're going to have to agree to disagree on most of this Arthur. I believe I am being rational, and you also believe you are being rational. Obviously, an unbiased individual can always be the judge for us.


when i was in primary school, thats what they call it here, i did science, that evolved in high school, and i did biochem at university. if you were to as me how it has evolved, i would tell you now that i know more than i did when i was learning, because i have out it in practice. but what i will tell you is that the more i have learnt, the more questions i have left unanswered, the more i see i need to know. the more i read, the more i see things i dont know, if you were to ask me to come up with certain ideas, i wouldnt know how, but i know how they are used.

fast forward to you, you have done programming, no big deal, i have a sister who has a degree in computer science, and she could teach me the basics, what you fail to understand is that you have done so little, that it matters or counts for nothing in the bigger picture e.g. i knew a friend who programmed a lot, he knew a lot of stuff from game engines, how they worked, to dev kits, was he a game coder? hell no, he was trying to get his XBLA title published, and although he had written code for years, he admitted that he still did not have what it takes to be a full fledged game coder.

to you, you have coded for two years tops i am guessing, and thats one the higher side, these guys have been doing it for years, some for as long as 10 - 15 years, they have seen advancements in gaming, and made advancements, and you think that your limited coding makes or has you knowing a lot. dont be naive

as for damage modelling, please try and look up how many CPU cycles it takes for you to do it, and tie up that to the fact that in forza, its tied to you steering, drivetrain, body, suspension, and other variables, all those have to be calculated in split seconds to give a response to damage and its effects on handling taking into consideration car type, settings and upgrades amonfg a plethora of other factors i dont have the time to get into. is that engine as simple as you are trying to make it seem? hell no

I don't claim to have great programming knowledge, nor do I need it to see that Forza's damage modelling isn't as advanced as the modelling in other games, nor do I need to be a programmer to realise that it seems very random a lot of the time. Maybe it isn't random, maybe I'm mistaken. That's my perception of it.

It's not a bad damage system... it just certainly isn't a great feature to me. Visually it's VERY poor, and in gameplay terms, it serves its purpose just fine. It could easily be better. You can't roll your car at all, for one. I'd love to see that. One of the scariest movements of my life when I toppled a car in LFS (before realising it was a game!)


people exploit games and the way they are designed, you do it, to

I attempt to do it as little as possible, and will stay away from any known exploits (nor will I specifically use the less known ones). Some are almost unavoidable, but irregardless, my intention is to not use them.

I don't know how you know how I game though.. :/


no game is perfect, each game has its loopholes, i have seen it in all gam,es i play

Again, there are different amounts of imperfection. Some games have very few, minor loopholes, and some have ones which break the game. Forza's, unless you have people who DON'T exploit (not easy) is a game breaker, as it essentially makes it impossible to win without also exploiting.


not so if you read and understand what i post, is it?

... It's only 'not so' if I subscribe to your every opinion, which just isn't going to happen.


saying it twice doesnt make it true, does it? i have given you perfect examples, you chose not to reply to them, you merely sidestepped them as you do in whole chunks of your replies, i on the other hand have tried to reply to everything you have written, agreeing and disagreeing,

I have total right to disagree with your opinions, and when I see something which is false, I will reply to it. When I see you disguising opinion as fact, I will reply to it to show you that, actually your opinion isn't some official truth.

As for this PI thing, you have completely neglected what the PI is, and what it does, numerous times. You don't understand what the point of it is, and frankly it just seems as if you are making an excuse for it.


your age is deeply showing in your responses, dont take it personally, but please, please, respond to the issues i have raised.
give the resoning behind your opinion, and examples, it makes for better debate, this you are wrong, you are wrong claims with nothing behind it is childish, and thats for lack of a better term

Again, I think we need to agree to disagree with a lot of this. Personally, I think your 'reason' lies in absolute tatters. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe one of us has totally lost the ability to argue rationally. You'll point at me, I'm sure, and guess what? I'll point at you.

I'm happy to debate it with you up til the point when I believe you are beginning to break the rules, or we're inflicting on others' reading on the forum.

@non-Arthur peoplez: If this 'debate' is starting to get on your nerves, say, and I'll happily stop.

[arthur]

There's a problem with that paragraph. Cars are not hard to drive. And if you have any racing sense at all, cars are not hard to race. Likewise, cars perform because of the way they are built, not how they are tuned. Tuning by definition only brings out a measure of better performance. If you tune a car - NOT upgrade, and it blows away an untuned version, your physics are off.
first, congrats on reviewing the earlier post, and editing it, it was a joke.
first, you cannot tune stock parts in forza, you first upgrade then tune.

just like in real life, getting more power really never means getting ore in terms of performance, that is why people tune, in forza, at least in my case, it has been neccesary to tune all cars so as to get better handling, the car then responds the way i want, and by extension easier to control, which is tantamount to easier driving.

Then your memory is shoddy. The mid-engined cars like the Lotus Esprit and Toyota MR2 drove like front engined cars in GT3. I loved them dearly. In GT4, they were still a delight to drive, but you had to finally watch your cornering and keep some power applied, or your tail would start to swing round. Likewise, front drive cars like the Hondas drove very much like rear drive cars in GT3. While GT4 was only a slight improvement towards realism, it was progress.and no one has denied that, just not a huge leap thatxaor wants me to beleive, especially after playing 99% and 66% of GT3 and GT4 resppectively


In physics, yes. In the other two... sorry. I own both, and saw no difference. Well, except for the fact that MS finally offered a rather questionable force feedback wheel controller, so Forza 2 gameplay was much more GT-like. However, my $150 wheel broke after only two months...then you must know fairly little about physics, read my earlier posts, they may shed light

Looks like the same old arthur. ;)

Frankly, I don't think I needed to post this since Xaor really did nail you on several points, artie. But I think he's done with you. I, however, need to fire up a synthesizer..funny thing is that no one posts anything with backing or rational behind them, and im getting nailed. are you seeing things as they are, or as you want them to seem?

I'm just merely picking out anything you say which is untrue, and saying it. If you want to know what I believe? I told you. not onlu dont you acknowledge great points, you are also a nitpicker?

You replied to what I said, either making excuses for it, or disagreeing with it.with reasons as to why i felt so, giving examples and analogies

Which is fine... it's just, everything I wrote is infallible opinion, and I didn't even bring GT into this.i did, and it was to try and shed light on what you said

As Tetsu says, cars aren't 'hard' to drive, and to be honest, Forza cars aren't 'hard' to drive. Hard to master yes, but not hard to drive, and it's the same with any racing game, no matter how arcade.i love soccer, and basketball, i watch a lot of tricks and try to do them.

some come out fairly easily, but others take weeks and months before i master them. they are like that because they are harder to perform and master in as far as i am concerned.

its the same with real life, cars have been made better by making them handle better, thereby giving great results to both driver and gamer.
if you have lets say a car that suffers froma lot of understeer, it will be harder to corner and make up for lost seconds, however much you master the vehicle, you will still be driving, albeit having rough times at cornering.

now maybe its me, but english seems to be a problem here

Sorry, I think I read your post pretty exactly. You were stating that you had to tune in Forza to make the most of the car and it's parts.. which was true in GT as well.
good Lord, who said you couldnt tune in GT? i said i never had to tune all the cars in GT because the car went better and automatically handled sublimely immediately after adding the upgrade, you mean you arent reading?


... As you could potentially have had the Skyline in the S class, or U class, and the TVR is truly a very hard car to drive...?so now cars are becoming hard to drive? funny how people contradict themselves

I have found fault with a lot of your reasoning, and will continue to do so. I didn't really think that I had neglected any parts of your replies, but maybe I have, in which case, sorry.there used to be two people in a town, one was asked, what do you see wrong in that building? he went on to say it had a shaky foundation, and the design was fundamentally flawed, going on to give reasons that had backing as to why he held that view, eventually proving his case.

now the other guy was asked what was wrong, all he could say was it just looks wrong, nothing to go on and back his claims.

that said and done, i have given my reasons, thoughts and backings when i have stated my case, all i get from you and tetsu is you are wrong, you are wrong. where the hell are you backing statements and claims?

we could all reason that what you post is basically opinion with no fact, and treat it as such



I won't be drawn into insulting you Arthur, what I will say is that you seriously need to seperate opinions, and fact.look above

My opinion is that the difference between GT3, and 4, and 4 and 5P, are considerable. You imply that nothing has changed. I'm not going to continually argue that point back and forth because, frankly, I'm not changing my mind, and you aren't changing yours.you know, debate is about putting things on the table, i said there were improvements, just not that huge, you say there were bigger.
looking at the posts, i have given a portion of what i thought improved, have you? NO.
start by giving me something


Frankly, and I may have been alone on this, I found the transition from GT3 to 4 quite tough purely because it had changed quite a lot. Certain types of car, as Tetsu says, changed a lot.aint that being too vague?