Sony is planning "Trophy Support" for folding@home

[ZTMIKE]

http://foldingforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3703&sid=9c1484b25bd10e0618e19ce3f35c7acc

nrimon (http://foldingforum.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=632) on Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:49 pm This should go in the suggestion box. It is something we plan down the road.
Thanks,
Noam
Sony Development Team


How awesome is that? Maybe this will give a nice jump in Folding@Home support? It would be nice..Because from the f@h status..it looks to me like we are loosing ps3 folders.

[FantasyStar]

I dunno, for me it's just easier to fold on my PC. My ATI HD3870 runs circles around the Cell Processor in terms of producing WUs. Granted the PS3 has bigger individual WUs to handle, but in the end I would only care about that nice number next to my Donor name.

[leukoplast]

I actually thought about this earlier that they might do something like this.

Personally wouldn't effect me at all since I don't fold, but some people out there are folding addicts. Surely they could get some extra incentive for doing it.

[Stoffinator]

I dunno, for me it's just easier to fold on my PC. My ATI HD3870 runs circles around the Cell Processor in terms of producing WUs. Granted the PS3 has bigger individual WUs to handle, but in the end I would only care about that nice number next to my Donor name.

If I remember right, the Cell folds faster then any processor out there now. Least I remember something along those lines.

[leukoplast]

If I remember right, the Cell folds faster then any processor out there now. Least I remember something along those lines.

Yeah, I think your right. The PS3 is a mathematical crunching beast. Rumor be that it is one of the most powerful number crunching (or however its called) 'computers' available right now.

[FantasyStar]

If I remember right, the Cell folds faster then any processor out there now. Least I remember something along those lines.

There's alot of testimony that currently Nvidia's CUDA Engine along with their line of GPUs ranging from the Geforce 8 series to 200 series is beating the **** out of the Cell and runs circles around it. I'm not one to respond simply by nice little graphs endorsed by Nvidia themselves; however I got a good friend who knows his stuff and his single 9600GT is producing more WU than my PS3 could ever hope for. For every 1 WU I get with PS3, he probably gets 6-7.

I do know it's because the GPUs and PCs get much smaller WUs to handle compared to PS3's Cell CPU. But in the end, the only thing people look at is the number next to their Donor name. No one looks at the size of WUs anymore, especially in the gaming community. You can bet the FUD for Cell to come passing by when information is misconstrued to make the PS3 look bad blah-blah cause a single $130 GPU can outperform the cell in terms of WU numbers in an 7 hour time frame.

ehhh?

[ZTMIKE]

I asked about the GPU Vs. ps3 on the Stanford forums..and the response I got was because the GPU client has to fold more to actually get good results back..compared to the ps3 client which doesn't have to fold more to get good results back..hense the big numbers difference between the gpu client and the ps3.

[ttech10]

I used to Fold almost all the time but that lasted for like a month and a half or two. I might start doing it again if I can get some trophies out of it, as well as helping the project and team.

[Lozt_again]

Who'd have thought you could do a smaller task faster? Let alone a stand alone gfx card worth more
than my PS3 could do better. You have to wonder where people get off eh? O wait... they get off on
numbers.

For the record,

Trophies own numbers.

[ZTMIKE]

I found it, from what I mentioned above..

You can't easily judge the performance by comparing TFLOPS on that Stats page.

For example, the GPUs can't store some data from one calculation to the next, so the GPU has to keep recalculating those results 2, maybe 4 times over. So while the GPU looks 4 times faster because it is doing 4x the number of calculations (4x the FLOPS), it had to do 4x the calculations just to get the one single amount of science done that the PS3 can do.


http://foldingforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3341


I'd rather have the ps3 crunch than the GPU client if its actually helping more..in the end its about returning good science results ..not how many Work-units you do..

[dtom2444]

meh. just sounds like sony's desperate to get more trophies out there, knowing that devs aren't exactly racing to release patches

[FantasyStar]

A nice way to sum up that crunch of techno-jargon is this way..

GPU folds 5000-25,000 Frames (per WU) About 1-2 hours each (sometime the GPU ****s up on small parts and has to do it over again)

PS3 folds about 100,000 Frames. (per WU) About 6-7 hours each (not a problem!)

However, PS3 gets more points for its WUs than GPUs. So if you wanna be anal; a team of 5 PS3 working together vs a team of 5 PCs working together with 9600GTs in em. I'd place my bet on the PS3 team because it's not about the WU numbers that rank you up on the leaderboards, it's the total points you get from your WUs.

[Stoffinator]

meh. just sounds like sony's desperate to get more trophies out there, knowing that devs aren't exactly racing to release patches

How can they rush? They've only had the kit for like 2 or 3 weeks, when the rumours started.

[msdstc]

This will definitely motivate me to do it... and I know plenty of others who will for this reason. They should add some to start, and keep making the number go up.

[silentmemory]

Seems like the worst way to use trophies to me.

Bronze cup for checking out the world map, Silver cup for leaving your PS3 folding overnight, Gold cup for folding 1,000 work units...

Hopefully they'll have more imagination than me and actually try to use trophies to change how people use Folding@Home, rather than just reward them for doing what they'd be doing anyway.

[Stoffinator]

Seems like the worst way to use trophies to me.

Bronze cup for checking out the world map, Silver cup for leaving your PS3 folding overnight, Gold cup for folding 1,000 work units...

Hopefully they'll have more imagination than me and actually try to use trophies to change how people use Folding@Home, rather than just reward them for doing what they'd be doing anyway.

If it gets people to fold@home why does it matter?

[360DiedOnMe]

There's alot of testimony that currently Nvidia's CUDA Engine along with their line of GPUs ranging from the Geforce 8 series to 200 series is beating the **** out of the Cell and runs circles around it. I'm not one to respond simply by nice little graphs endorsed by Nvidia themselves; however I got a good friend who knows his stuff and his single 9600GT is producing more WU than my PS3 could ever hope for. For every 1 WU I get with PS3, he probably gets 6-7.

I do know it's because the GPUs and PCs get much smaller WUs to handle compared to PS3's Cell CPU. But in the end, the only thing people look at is the number next to their Donor name. No one looks at the size of WUs anymore, especially in the gaming community. You can bet the FUD for Cell to come passing by when information is misconstrued to make the PS3 look bad blah-blah cause a single $130 GPU can outperform the cell in terms of WU numbers in an 7 hour time frame.

ehhh?
like you said th ey are different sizes lol. I think i ran it on my 8800gt and i'm pretty sure tha it didn't perform better than the ps3.

[dtom2444]

look, i know Sony want to be different from Microsoft, and that they don't want trophies to be the same as achievements, but come on. Folding is done to help solve complex calculations in the name of scientific research. Why on God's green earth would you get an award, one that has to do with your GAMER level? it makes no sense. The fact that one can fold on the ps3 changes nothing, Trophies should be awarded for accomplishments accomplished WHILE PLAYING A GAME. Its like Microsoft handing out achievements for playing an hd dvd movie, and not blu ray. pointless imo

[msdstc]

look, i know Sony want to be different from Microsoft, and that they don't want trophies to be the same as achievements, but come on. Folding is done to help solve complex calculations in the name of scientific research. Why on God's green earth would you get an award, one that has to do with your GAMER level? it makes no sense. The fact that one can fold on the ps3 changes nothing, Trophies should be awarded for accomplishments accomplished WHILE PLAYING A GAME. Its like Microsoft handing out achievements for playing an hd dvd movie, and not blu ray. pointless imo

How is this in anyway bad? It's motivating people to use a program that works towards a good cause. If you think about all the people out there who so badly want trophies, and they all need to fold to achieve that, then you got a damn good thing going for you. There would be a nice spike in the amount of WU, albeit only for a short while. That's why I'm saying they should add more trophies in the future, asking for a new goal of time. It could keep people coming back, and maybe even pick up a few new everyday users.

[Stoffinator]

look, i know Sony want to be different from Microsoft, and that they don't want trophies to be the same as achievements, but come on. Folding is done to help solve complex calculations in the name of scientific research. Why on God's green earth would you get an award, one that has to do with your GAMER level? it makes no sense. The fact that one can fold on the ps3 changes nothing, Trophies should be awarded for accomplishments accomplished WHILE PLAYING A GAME. Its like Microsoft handing out achievements for playing an hd dvd movie, and not blu ray. pointless imo

Like I said, if it gets more people to fold, then whats wrong with that? That only helps the cause. Many will not do it other wise. So I see no problem with it.

[Judgegeo]

Hmm this will motivate me to fix the problem I get when it wont credit my username with the WU's. Trophies ftw.

[ludacriss]

This would be cool. Then they can reward you for previous uploaded WU's, not like the case is with the games, because you can dld saves from the net.

[silentmemory]

If it gets people to fold@home why does it matter?

It doesn't matter, nothing about trophies 'matters'. I just said it's a really bad way of using them - next there will be trophies for downloading demos from the PSN store, or for watching 3 adverts in a row in Home, or for turning your PS3 on every day for a week. You might argue that those are good trophies because they'd encourage people to play their PS3 and use Home.

[Dasimpse]

No way DO NOT DO THIS SONY!!!!, leave trophies for games, they should bea bout your score in games and what level gamer you are. If they do this its just pointless. The person who is willing to leave their ps3 on the most, draining their elec bill gets a higher trophy score?? screw that.

[Staticneuron]

It doesn't matter, nothing about trophies 'matters'. I just said it's a really bad way of using them - next there will be trophies for downloading demos from the PSN store, or for watching 3 adverts in a row in Home, or for turning your PC on every day for a week. You might argue that those are good trophies because they'd encourage people to play their PS3 and use Home.

You have a really good point but maybe its not meant that way. For the folding at home people maybe its more of an acknowledgement to the time they have commited. If you want to go for it more power to you but I feel that they might be thinking of giving recognition to the ones that have been doing it for so long.

Besides even though its a silly goal how can you really compare folding to the rest of things on your list?

[silentmemory]

For the folding at home people maybe its more of an acknowledgement to the time they have commited.
It's not time they've commited, it's electrical energy, where's the skill in that? And isn't contributing to medical research enough reward in and of itself? I was using my PC in an anti-cancer distributed computing grid project years before the PS3 was even announced, but I'm not looking for any reward or recognition for it.

Besides even though its a silly goal how can you really compare folding to the rest of things on your list?
Facetious though they may be, those are just examples of coercing a gamer to do something which is good for Sony or their partners, rather than something which is good for the gamer.

[Stoffinator]

It doesn't matter, nothing about trophies 'matters'. I just said it's a really bad way of using them - next there will be trophies for downloading demos from the PSN store, or for watching 3 adverts in a row in Home, or for turning your PS3 on every day for a week. You might argue that those are good trophies because they'd encourage people to play their PS3 and use Home.

The rest of the stuff you mentioned is stupid, but if it gets people to fold@home I don't see a problem with it.

[silentmemory]

The rest of the stuff you mentioned is stupid, but if it gets people to fold@home I don't see a problem with it.
Perhaps Sony should start bricking consoles which don't Fold at least once a week, it's all in a good cause after all?

[MiNiMaL_sAnItY]

It's not time they've commited, it's electrical energy, where's the skill in that? And isn't contributing to medical research enough reward in and of itself? I was using my PC in an anti-cancer distributed computing grid project years before the PS3 was even announced, but I'm not looking for any reward or recognition for it.

This.

I'd like for folding and gaming to be kept separate w.r.t trophies. Also, it wouldnt be fair, with people folding on their PCs.

[Stoffinator]

Perhaps Sony should start bricking consoles which don't Fold at least once a week, it's all in a good cause after all?

Is that your serious come back? Please.

[silentmemory]

Is that your serious come back? Please.

No, that was me being facetious again, not big on sardonicism are you?

No offence but you sound like a big proponent of F@H who'd like to 'earn' himself a few easy trophies to tell the world what a great guy he is. And to be fair, perhaps there's a reason beyond copyright why Sony used the word 'trophies' instead of 'achievements'.

[Stoffinator]

No, that was me being facetious again, not big on sardonicism are you?

No offence but you sound like a big proponent of F@H who'd like to 'earn' himself a few easy trophies to tell the world what a great guy he is. And to be fair, perhaps there's a reason beyond copyright why Sony used the word 'trophies' instead of 'achievements'.

Nope not at all. I just don't see a problem with it if it gets people to use the program. In the end the trophies means nothing, but it at least gets people to help. Maybe you don't care and thats fine.

[NAJC]

Seems like the worst way to use trophies to me.

Bronze cup for checking out the world map, Silver cup for leaving your PS3 folding overnight, Gold cup for folding 1,000 work units...

Hopefully they'll have more imagination than me and actually try to use trophies to change how people use Folding@Home, rather than just reward them for doing what they'd be doing anyway.

I see what you mean, they are rather limited to stupid things that they could give trophies for. It does seem kinda pointless, but it's all in the name of a good cause so maybe a some amount of trophies would do, but definitely not the same number as that you get in a PSN game, as otherwise itwould be really silly.

[Bravo9zero]

This is a good idea Sony. I would definitively Fold more for a Small reward Like some new avatar's or trophies .

I bet a lot more people will start folding for those rewards too. like SuperStar Dust nearly everyone bought that game last night Just for the trophies.

[VintageElise]

This will surely get more people folding. Not me, But other people.

[Dasimpse]

in further news microsoft starts giving achievemnts for how long your console is on. 24 hours of constant power gives you 50 points. also achievemnts for downloading a arcade game, and for downloading your FIRST hd movie.

leave it to the games, have it be fun. its medical research, people should want to do it on their won. not be like, hey im getting a trophie for this. I couldnt give a damna bout the research etc. I mean seriousley this is the dumbest thing ive heard in ages. I hope they dont do it.

[Stoffinator]

in further news microsoft starts giving achievemnts for how long your console is on. 24 hours of constant power gives you 50 points. also achievemnts for downloading a arcade game, and for downloading your FIRST hd movie.

Now you are just talking stupid stuff. That would be pointless. But if it gets people to help use a program that helps more important stuff, whats the matter with that? So what if you get a trophy or two for it, the fact is, it will get more people to HELP.

[Carl]

Sounds like a good idea to me. It will certainly get me to start folding again

[GuitarrassDeAmor]

Wehn are they going to start? Because if it was like tomorrow, I am going to fold for a month/

[JamesP]

No way DO NOT DO THIS SONY!!!!, leave trophies for games, they should bea bout your score in games and what level gamer you are. If they do this its just pointless. The person who is willing to leave their ps3 on the most, draining their elec bill gets a higher trophy score?? screw that.

Folding@home hardly drains the electric bill. I'm not sure where it was but if I find it again I'll post it, but someone calculated that if you are folding 24/7 for an entire month the electricity usage for your PS3 would be approximately 5-15 dollars. That all depends on where you live and what you get charged for electricity, but 5-15 dollars if I decide to be a humanitarian ALL MONTH is really not even that much when paying the utilities for a small apartment much less a full home.


SOURCE:

PS3 power usage during Folding@Home (http://www.hardcoreware.net/ps3-power-usage-during-foldinghome/)

March 26 Carl Nelson (carl@hardcoreware.net)
http://www.hardcoreware.net/images/feed_12.png (http://www.hardcoreware.net/feed/)Subscribe to our FULL RSS feed! (http://www.hardcoreware.net/feed/)

We were the first to give the full scoop on power consumption in today’s consoles (http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-356-1.htm), so we broke out the trusty old watt meter to find out how much power is being sucked by the PS3 while folding. I had feared the worst, as the Cell processors must be working at their full potential doing these calculations.
I am happy to report that the PS3 consumes no more than about 200W while folding, with a Power Factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor) of 0.99. This is the same peak we saw from it during gameplay (http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-356-2.htm). Considering that the PS3 accounts for about 65% of Folding@Home’s current TFLOPS (http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=osstats), yet only 13% of the total active processors, this should be considered yet another bragging point for the PS3 as a folding unit.
To give an idea of how much this might cost, my Watts-Up Pro (https://www.doubleed.com/products.html) estimates that the PS3 will consume about 138 KiloWatt Hours per month at this rate. The price of electricity varies widely around the world, but here in Hong Kong, I pay about $0.12 USD per KWh (http://www.clpgroup.com/NR/exeres/D8FEECDC-7196-42A3-BC59-577D2136026C%2C41BE6DB9-FEBB-431E-ADA4-C1B9F7391531%2Cframeless.htm?ch=%5FHK%5FCLPP%5FRes Cust%5FBill%5FTarf%5F&lang=en) (after my normal power usage is accounted for). So to keep the PS3 folding 24/7, I will be paying about $16.56 extra on my power bill each month. If I still lived in Vancouver, where they have an abundant amount of hydroelectric power, the cost per KWh is a paltry $0.053 USD (http://www.bchydro.com/policies/rates/rates757.html). This would mean an extra $7.30 every month to have the PS3 folding 24/7. A small price to pay considering how efficient the PS3 is at folding; at this rate, we may just get some good results from this project after all!
Now, can we have some good games please?

[Queso]

I've done a grip of folding already too bad trophies are not retroactive :(

[bobtheduck]

There's alot of testimony that currently Nvidia's CUDA Engine along with their line of GPUs ranging from the Geforce 8 series to 200 series is beating the **** out of the Cell and runs circles around it. I'm not one to respond simply by nice little graphs endorsed by Nvidia themselves; however I got a good friend who knows his stuff and his single 9600GT is producing more WU than my PS3 could ever hope for. For every 1 WU I get with PS3, he probably gets 6-7.


Well, this is the thing:

Traditional CPUs can do every type of calculation (probably all of them can, but to keep it consistent they limit the others)

Cell can do nearly every type, and do those types much much much faster than the x86 CPUs

GPUs can do a very limited number of Workloads, much much smaller than Cell, but do those types a LOT faster than Cell...

In order to do all the calculations, there has to be people on x86 CPUs because the cell is slower than those CPUs on some types of calculations, so they don't assign those types to Cell... Same thing with GPUs...

Overall, the Cell does the most work, but some things come faster with GPUs, and the remainder must be done with x86 processors.