Peace And War!

[Deldwen]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/deldwen/peace-sign.jpg

This is devoted to those who are dieing from our troops. To promote freedom. Are we not already free?

Children and women are dieing.
Iraq didn't have weapons of massive destruction and Saddam Hussein wasn't linked to Al Qieda. So what freedom are we fighting for exactly? The destruction of others?
We are fighting an oil war and people are suffering for it.

Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9-11. We funded Saddam into power and gave him weapons to fight against Iran. (And now he's dead so we have no reason to be there AT ALL)

Not one Iraqi was on the planes of 9-11 attacks.
The first city we bombed had never harmed an American citizen in it's entire history.

We are creating terrorist in a sick cycle, we kill there brothers and sisters so they retaliate. Suicide bombing was never prevalent until we invaded there country in march of 2003, in works to scare us out.

Official studies claim somewhere between 500,000 innocent people and 700,000 innocent people are now dead from our full occupation. (link http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html) We are killing so many indiscriminately fore if one Iraqi man has a gun it is order to shoot EVERYONE around them, and ANYTHING that moves.

Would you not defend your home country from foreign invaders that are killing YOUR family and YOUR friends, for no other reason then to suck out your resources and to protect THEIR FREEDOM, THAT THEY ALREADY HAVE?!?

A war of aggression is ILLEGAL There are countless war crimes happening in Iraq.

Just be good to the people that are around you... promote a better world for our future children.

Live and Let Live.

All you need is love.

Peace.

****** !WATCH AT LEAST ONE VIDEO BEFORE YOU MAKE A REPLY TO MY POST! ******

*Films I Made To Push For LOVE*

YouTube - Across The Universe

YouTube - Strawberry

YouTube - Words Of Truth

YouTube - Beauty in Death

YouTube - Hey Jude.

YouTube - You Want A Revolution?

YouTube - Because



YouTube - Let It Be.

YouTube - Imagine Peace...

YouTube - A Warm Gun...

YouTube - The Silent Girl...

YouTube - Smile

YouTube - All Our Loving in Iraq.

YouTube - Have Hope.

YouTube - All The Little Astronauts

YouTube - THE TAXMAN!

YouTube - Listen to The Color of Your Dreams.

YouTube - BlackBird

YouTube - The Weeping.

YouTube - The Insanity of What Is.

[Vulgotha]

This is repulsive.

If nothing else, even if we pretend everything you have to say is true- atleast we freed people from a genocidal tyrant.

We did fund him to fight Iran, along with Britain and Russia (and a few others). Looking back at this moment in time, we should have gone into Iran ourselves, along with our allies.


Regarding the UN sanctions and Geneva Convention: Who cares? Nobody follows any of those arbitrary and pointless rules set down. In fact, when it comes down to it, nobody ever has.

Anybody remember the Kellogg Brand Treaty with Russia and Japan over Manchuria? That ended well- in the Russo-Jap war.


You expect goodness out of people, you expect love. This is foolish. The only progress mankind has made over these hundreds of years is his efficiency in killing others.

"War is to obtain peace, and peace to prepare for War" ~ Sun Tzu.

Just a fact of life.



Saddam's legacy:
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_graves_in_Iraq
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/world/middleeast/05grave.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7285175.stm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,102568,00.html
(http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/world/middleeast/05grave.html)



Do excuse me if I sleep rather soundly with him dead tonight. I'll disregard "Love" in favor of doing what needs to be done, reality, and justice any day of the week.

Love is a great concept and ideal to push for- but not at the expense of becoming an idealist with good intentions that only hurts others.

I'm also not so sure about there being no "WMD's" in Iraq- I'm beginning to suspect they were shipped to Syria in a massive convoy that left iraq pre-invasion.


http://www.nysun.com/foreign/saddams...li-says/24480/ (http://www.nysun.com/foreign/saddams-wmd-moved-to-syria-an-israeli-says/24480/)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1673944/posts
http://www.globalpolitician.com/21610-iraq-syria-wmd
http://noisyroom.net/blog/2006/03/02...yria-evidence/
(http://noisyroom.net/blog/2006/03/02/more-wmds-to-syria-evidence/)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMD_the..._2003_Iraq_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMD_theories_in_the_aftermath_of_the_2003_Iraq_War )
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/014835.php
http://palmettopundit.blogspot.com/2...-to-syria.html




(http://palmettopundit.blogspot.com/2006/01/iraq-wmd-moved-to-syria.html)

[Deldwen]

He's dead... so why are we still effing in there? We've killed more people then he could EVER dream.

If you viewed every person as yourself in just another body you would understand why there must be peace.

And all i do is state facts.

I'm not for one side or the other. I'm only for Love in ALL people.

Watch ONE of my video's and you just might understand.

[Vulgotha]

No you don't.

Why are we still there? Well let me break this down for you, a little fact most people on this forum and in America don't quite seem to grasp.

1. Iran is Shia. Their leader (Supreme Leader) is in effect the Pope of all Shia Islam. He is revered as such

2. Saudi Arabia (and etc) are Sunni. Sunni currently make up most of the Islamic population on our planet. They do not like Shiites.

3. If we left Iraq now, with this power vacuum (we killed the dictator) what do you think Saudi Arabia and Iran would do? They certainly wouldn't trust each other now would they? No. There would probably be something of a war over Iraq in the middle east if we left those two regional Islamic powers sitting next to a country devoid of a government.



So how about it? Are in you favor of "More innocents dying" just so we can pull our boys out of there? Think of all the Iraqis who will get caught in the crossfire once we leave.

[Taion]

This is repulsive.

If nothing else, even if we pretend everything you have to say is true- atleast we freed people from a genocidal tyrant.

We did fund him to fight Iran, along with Britain and Russia (and a few others). Looking back at this moment in time, we should have gone into Iran ourselves, along with our allies.


Regarding the UN sanctions and Geneva Convention: Who cares? Nobody follows any of those arbitrary and pointless rules set down. In fact, when it comes down to it, nobody ever has.

Anybody remember the Kellogg Brand Treaty with Russia and Japan over Manchuria? That ended well- in the Russo-Jap war.


You expect goodness out of people, you expect love. This is foolish. The only progress mankind has made over these hundreds of years is his efficiency in killing others.

"War is to obtain peace, and peace to prepare for War" ~ Sun Tzu.

Just a fact of life.



Saddam's legacy:
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_graves_in_Iraq
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/world/middleeast/05grave.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7285175.stm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,102568,00.html
(http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/world/middleeast/05grave.html)



Do excuse me if I sleep rather soundly with him dead tonight. I'll disregard "Love" in favor of doing what needs to be done, reality, and justice any day of the week.

Love is a great concept and ideal to push for- but not at the expense of becoming an idealist with good intentions that only hurts others.

I'm also not so sure about there being no "WMD's" in Iraq- I'm beginning to suspect they were shipped to Syria in a massive convoy that left iraq pre-invasion.


http://www.nysun.com/foreign/saddams...li-says/24480/ (http://www.nysun.com/foreign/saddams-wmd-moved-to-syria-an-israeli-says/24480/)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1673944/posts
http://www.globalpolitician.com/21610-iraq-syria-wmd
http://noisyroom.net/blog/2006/03/02...yria-evidence/
(http://noisyroom.net/blog/2006/03/02/more-wmds-to-syria-evidence/)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMD_the..._2003_Iraq_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMD_theories_in_the_aftermath_of_the_2003_Iraq_War )
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/014835.php
http://palmettopundit.blogspot.com/2...-to-syria.html




(http://palmettopundit.blogspot.com/2006/01/iraq-wmd-moved-to-syria.html)

The mentality of Sun Tzu suggests that war is inevitable, necessary. This defeats the whole point of peace, it infact drags the concept of peace through the dirt, spits on it and then says 'sorry , its necessary' War is not necessary. War only causes more war. 'Peace' attained between wars is not peace, merely a prelude to more war.

thought -> separation -> hatred -> war -> suffering

War is because we 'think' we are separate from one another. This is the dream in which most people exist.

Wake up.

[Vulgotha]

War is inevitable and it is necessary. It's part of human nature, the condition. If none of this were true, then maybe Marx was right.


Sadly he wasn't, was he?

[Deldwen]

No you don't. All you do is state what others tell you to state.

Why are we still there? Well let me break this down for you, a little fact most people on this forum and in America don't quite seem to grasp.

1. Iran is Shia. Their leader (Supreme Leader) is in effect the Pope of all Shia Islam. He is revered as such

2. Saudi Arabia (and etc) are Sunni. Sunni currently make up most of the Islamic population on our planet. They do not like Shiites.

3. If we left Iraq now, with this power vacuum (we killed the dictator) what do you think Saudi Arabia and Iran would do? They certainly wouldn't trust each other now would they? No. There would probably be something of a war over Iraq in the middle east if we left those two regional Islamic powers sitting next to a country devoid of a government.



So how about it? Are in you favor of "More innocents dying" just so we can pull our boys out of there? Think of all the Iraqis who will get caught in the crossfire once we leave.


think of the 600,000 Iraqi's that have already died because were there...

YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF HUMAN LIFE!

i know the world sucks, people are idiots and you want to protect your country from foreign invaders makes sense!

But we wouldn't have foreign invaders if we weren't there right now!

So how can you justify a war that has in no way helped your country or the Iraqi people besides the dictator that WE put into power?

We are in debt and USA is losing all morals from all the neo-cons in the white house...

I wish someone would open there eye's to love, ignorance wont get us anywhere.

[Vulgotha]

Ok, so now your argument is:

"Let's pretend that everything vulgotha just said isn't real, and that there will be no conflict between Saudi Arabia and Iran if we leave!"

Right.


If those Iraqi's were serving under Saddam's regime, then I'm sorry, but my conscience is clear. Sometimes necessity outweighs lofty ideals and values. Besides, I think it helped the people in the end.

Nothing good ever comes free, our country didn't for example. Think of all the thousands that died in the revolution- How do we justify that?

[Taion]

War is inevitable and it is necessary. It's part of human nature, the condition. If none of this were true, then maybe Marx was right.


Sadly he wasn't, was he?


War is an illusion within a dream.

A desire to fill a hole within us that is not there. We seek something outside of ourselves in order to complement us. We seek material possession, money, land, attachments with objects and other people. This is the mentality of the masses. This is how war begins.

People create themselves based on the imagine in their mind, an extension of their thoughts. Thoughts are nothing more than thoughts, and should be treated as such. The fundamental, unchanging consciousness of us all is what connects us (and what defines us), it's what makes us one. Everything else is the product of thought. If you are aware of this, then you are aware that we are the same, and so we become aware that war is unnecessary.

[Vulgotha]

Then Marxism would be a viable and ideal solution to everything- Let's all be communists.

Oh wait- That's never worked has it? Utopia can never exist.

[carocat]

Moved it to 'Politics'. Keep it civil, guys.

[Carsonal]

They'll be out within the span of 3 years.

Until then, enjoy the bumpy ride on the road to ascension.

[Taion]

Then Marxism would be a viable and ideal solution to everything- Let's all be communists.

Oh wait- That's never worked has it? Utopia can never exist.


My experience has nothing do with Marxism, or atleast I don't identify with it. Please don't put me into a box.

Utopia is also a dream, an ideal.

There are no goals/ideals to achieve, striving to achieve a goal (made of the mind) causes us to suffer when the goal cannot be achieved. There is nowhere to go, no path to walk down.

We're all already complete, people just need to realise their own potential - the potential to create through consciousness. That is - waking up from the dream and seeing with clarity.

I am Taion
You are Vulgotha
But we are also one.

[Vulgotha]

Lol what you're talking about has everything to do with what Marx thought was possible.

Before condemning my use of Marxism as an example, perhaps you should go learn about it first.


Edit: apparently not. That's like pantheism or paganism.. What on earth are you talking about?

[Taion]

Lol what you're talking about has everything to do with what Marx thought was possible.

Before condemning my use of Marxism as an example, perhaps you should go learn about it first.


Edit: apparently not. That's like pantheism or paganism.. What on earth are you talking about?


Gods stem from the imagination too. I am not religious.

I have experienced moments of absolute clarity, free from the weight of thought, free from desire and the actions that result.It's simply being, in the current (eternal) moment of now.

I can't really explain it, because conceptualising it brings about thought, which is basically defeating the purpose of it.

I think it's one of those thing that has to be experienced to be understood.

[Vulgotha]

I'm afraid our discussion is going to have to end now then. Niether of us have any grounds to debate something that has only exclusively appeared to you, and in your mind.

[Carsonal]

I am Taion
You are Vulgotha
But we are also one.

Stress less.
He'll start remembering eventually.

[SymphonyX]

Brother will kill brother
Spilling blood across the land
killing for religion
Something i don't understand
Fools like me, who cross the sea
And come to foreign lands
Ask the sheep, for their beliefs
Do you kill on God's command

[Taion]

I'm afraid our discussion is going to have to end now then. Niether of us have any grounds to debate something that has only exclusively appeared to you, and in your mind.


It's direct experience free from the (stresses of) mind that i'm talking about.

But yes, you are right, this has no place in a politics discussion.

[Vulgotha]

Brother will kill brother
Spilling blood across the land
killing for religion
Something i don't understand
Fools like me, who cross the sea
And come to foreign lands
Ask the sheep, for their beliefs
Do you kill on God's command

Did you write that yourself? That's quite good.

[Deldwen]

My experience has nothing do with Marxism, or atleast I don't identify with it. Please don't put me into a box.

Utopia is also a dream, an ideal.

There are no goals/ideals to achieve, striving to achieve a goal (made of the mind) causes us to suffer when the goal cannot be achieved. There is nowhere to go, no path to walk down.

We're all already complete, people just need to realise their own potential - the potential to create through consciousness. That is - waking up from the dream and seeing with clarity.

I am Taion
You are Vulgotha
But we are also one.

you make a point I'm trying to share.

We are all one.

The same person living in different bodies with different reality's.

Love is all and love is everyone.

[Vulgotha]

this is nothing short of bizarre i'll tell you what.

You guys aren't even trying to bolster your respective points of view with facts or anything... Just emotions and post modernist spiritual philosophy.

[One-Shot]

So where was all of this outspoken rage when Saddam was in power? Iraq was hardly a peace loving place before. Innocent people died, were dying, and would continue to die under Saddam and eventually his sons. It seems if the suffering of innocents does not help push a political agenda for these "peace lovers" we never hear from them.

Also why not speak against the terrorists who blow themselves up in a marketplace or set roadside bombs? That is killing innocents. We go for the ones who won't let Iraq's new government get settled by creating such chaos and bloodshed in Iraq.

[SymphonyX]

So where was all of this outspoken rage when Saddam was in power? Iraq was hardly a peace loving place before. Innocent people died, were dying, and would continue to die under Saddam and eventually his sons. It seems if the suffering of innocents does not help push a political agenda for these "peace lovers" we never hear from them.

Also why not speak against the terrorists who blow themselves up in a marketplace or set roadside bombs? That is killing innocents. We go for the ones who won't let Iraq's new government get settled by creating such chaos and bloodshed in Iraq.

People won't speak out on anything until it personally affects them.

[Vulgotha]

So where was all of this outspoken rage when Saddam was in power? Iraq was hardly a peace loving place before. Innocent people died, were dying, and would continue to die under Saddam and eventually his sons. It seems if the suffering of innocents does not help push a political agenda for these "peace lovers" we never hear from them.

Also why not speak against the terrorists who blow themselves up in a marketplace or set roadside bombs? That is killing innocents. We go for the ones who won't let Iraq's new government get settled by creating such chaos and bloodshed in Iraq.

Exactly. Glad to see someone agrees.

[Deldwen]

this is nothing short of bizarre i'll tell you what.

You guys aren't even trying to bolster your respective points of view with facts or anything... Just emotions and post modernist spiritual philosophy.

and is philosophy illogical?

every problem is created from a flaw, and people are that flaw we need to be better to each other...

its like you think politics and morals are completely different

[Vulgotha]

No, they're melded together. But in place of facts and reason you insert tenets from post-modernist spiritual philosophy- philosophy in and of itself is not indicative of true logic.

It's just a school of thought, a set of beliefs.

For example would you accept my response: "Gay marriage is wrong because God said Homosexuality is an abomination in the Old Testament" ?

That statement in and of itself would be unacceptable to you- I would need secular facts to back up that position- but even so it's a value statement, a stance on morals. Ergo probably impossible to ever prove*.

If I were to say "Homosexuality causes adverse health side effects" then I could delve into facts\statistics and tangible "proof" so to speak.

(I use homosexuality merely because.. Well it's a convenient and well known example to pull from the Bible, lol).



*much like your position.

[SymphonyX]

It's just a school of thought, a set of beliefs.

Like Harry potter and his school?

[Deldwen]

So where was all of this outspoken rage when Saddam was in power? Iraq was hardly a peace loving place before. Innocent people died, were dying, and would continue to die under Saddam and eventually his sons. It seems if the suffering of innocents does not help push a political agenda for these "peace lovers" we never hear from them.

Also why not speak against the terrorists who blow themselves up in a marketplace or set roadside bombs? That is killing innocents. We go for the ones who won't let Iraq's new government get settled by creating such chaos and bloodshed in Iraq.

by the way! WE are CREATING the TERRORISTS!!

we kill there brothers and sisters... in turn making for a cycle of revenge!

there was no terrorist problems in Iraq till we came to blow the place up...

they are defending there country... even though they are idiots and shouldn't kill there own to create fear in the troops.

but US alone has killed 400,000 - 700,000 civilians there... more then any terrorist could ever dream...

we aren't helping, we're making more terrorists that YOU / WE are afraid of.

There are troops that come back and protest the wrongs in Iraq. They call all Iraqi's Haji so that its more animal then human.

I spoke to a troop on web cam and he was telling me how they kill children and wifes of terrorist because they would grow up to become terrorists and kill him.

here watch these...
YouTube - Iraq War Veteran Speaks out on Killing Civilians

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - The Iraq War: Legal or Illegal? (long but fact related)

if you don't wanna watch and see some truth then don't criticize my views that you haven't seen.

[Vulgotha]

Judge the entire ethics of the war based on the actions of a few soldiers.

Also, does the term "Collateral Damage" mean anything to you?

[Deldwen]

Judge the entire ethics of the war based on the actions of a few soldiers.

Also, does the term "Collateral Damage" mean anything to you?

No i judge the wide spread neglect or moral values from brain washing military camp on the ethics of this war.

I'm not dumb, i understand everyone is an individual and there are good people and bad people in the army.

But if we shouldn't be there to begin with i really don't understand how you can make an argument at all based off failed policy's by a spoiled war loving president...

[Vulgotha]

You never really proved the point that we shouldn't. In my first post I challenged you on that aspect and you kind of avoided it.

[Deldwen]

This is repulsive.

If nothing else, even if we pretend everything you have to say is true- atleast we freed people from a genocidal tyrant.

We did fund him to fight Iran, along with Britain and Russia (and a few others). Looking back at this moment in time, we should have gone into Iran ourselves, along with our allies.


Regarding the UN sanctions and Geneva Convention: Who cares? Nobody follows any of those arbitrary and pointless rules set down. In fact, when it comes down to it, nobody ever has.

Anybody remember the Kellogg Brand Treaty with Russia and Japan over Manchuria? That ended well- in the Russo-Jap war.


You expect goodness out of people, you expect love. This is foolish. The only progress mankind has made over these hundreds of years is his efficiency in killing others.

"War is to obtain peace, and peace to prepare for War" ~ Sun Tzu.

Just a fact of life.



Saddam's legacy:
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_graves_in_Iraq
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/world/middleeast/05grave.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7285175.stm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,102568,00.html
(http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/world/middleeast/05grave.html)



Do excuse me if I sleep rather soundly with him dead tonight. I'll disregard "Love" in favor of doing what needs to be done, reality, and justice any day of the week.

Love is a great concept and ideal to push for- but not at the expense of becoming an idealist with good intentions that only hurts others.

I'm also not so sure about there being no "WMD's" in Iraq- I'm beginning to suspect they were shipped to Syria in a massive convoy that left iraq pre-invasion.


http://www.nysun.com/foreign/saddams...li-says/24480/ (http://www.nysun.com/foreign/saddams-wmd-moved-to-syria-an-israeli-says/24480/)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1673944/posts
http://www.globalpolitician.com/21610-iraq-syria-wmd
http://noisyroom.net/blog/2006/03/02...yria-evidence/
(http://noisyroom.net/blog/2006/03/02/more-wmds-to-syria-evidence/)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMD_the..._2003_Iraq_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMD_theories_in_the_aftermath_of_the_2003_Iraq_War )
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/014835.php
http://palmettopundit.blogspot.com/2...-to-syria.html




(http://palmettopundit.blogspot.com/2006/01/iraq-wmd-moved-to-syria.html)

whats your point? he's dead... end of story?

first off.. you don't need 100,000 troops to take out 1 guy...

secondly does that mean we should do the same to bush? i mean the first city we bombed to hell NEVER EVER harmed an American citizen... and had no terrorist records...

Bush is just as bad as Saddam Hussein, except he kills 100,000's of thousands of people like you and me for oil profits.

[SymphonyX]

The further away an army moves from the bullet to the bomb, the more civilian deaths there will be.

90% of the deaths in this war have been civilian.

[Deldwen]

The further away an army moves from the bullet to the bomb, the more civilian deaths there will be.

90% of the deaths in this war have been civilian.

thank you for that powerful and much need said fact ^_^

Peace

[SymphonyX]

“We don’t do body counts”

General Tommy Franks
Iraq Body Count

Documented civilian deaths from violence (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/)84,328 – 92,004 (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/)http://www.iraqbodycount.org/graphs/timeline.php (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/)

Iraq Body Count is an ongoing human security project which maintains and updates the world’s largest public database (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/) of violent civilian deaths during and since the 2003 invasion. The count encompasses non-combatants killed by military or paramilitary action and the breakdown in civil security following the invasion.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

[Vulgotha]

..This is so absurd. "90%"!?

Wow this is just so bad. You can't expect me to believe any of this.


Edit: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/incidents/k9959

^ These were done by insurgents. This database takes into account insurgency strikes and suicide bombs. What is your point Symphony?

[SymphonyX]

Hey bro, I saw it in the documentary War is easy. They stated many sources but I don't want to view the whole movie again.

[Vulgotha]

I don't want to view it at all.

[Deldwen]

“We don’t do body counts”

General Tommy Franks
Iraq Body Count

Documented civilian deaths from violence (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/)84,328 – 92,004 (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/)http://www.iraqbodycount.org/graphs/timeline.php (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/)

Iraq Body Count is an ongoing human security project which maintains and updates the world’s largest public database (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/) of violent civilian deaths during and since the 2003 invasion. The count encompasses non-combatants killed by military or paramilitary action and the breakdown in civil security following the invasion.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

that body count has been proven inaccurate sadly...

the real researchers (not some little website thing) have gained the information from long polls and surveys of the country that at least 400,000 - 700,000 innocent people have died since the invasion in 2003.

CNN confirmed the number and now its the offical dead, and its rising day by day.

we must leave that place...

[SymphonyX]

But it says this in the website. :(

Iraq Body Count is a citizen-led initiative that depends on the work of others. We depend on others in many ways: they provide the information sources we analyse, they ensure that data about civilian deaths is kept in the eye of the public and politicians, and they contribute towards meeting the costs of our work.

[Deldwen]

But it says this in the website. :(

i know but CNN is an offical source... and tons of different news agencies

it sucks i know.. i wish not one innocent person had to die...

[Vulgotha]

I'll do my own research into the matter, I'd lop off my own hand before I trust CNN as a completely legitimate source.

Edit: Yea the more I look into that figure the more bogus it's readily becoming. Sorry but I don't buy into CNN or the Lancet figures.


This one article in particular bloodies up Iraq body count.com and the Lancet figures.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1469636.ece

[Taion]

this is nothing short of bizarre i'll tell you what.

You guys aren't even trying to bolster your respective points of view with facts or anything... Just emotions and post modernist spiritual philosophy.

So you deny that the only thing which can truly define your own experience of 'self' is the unchanging, constant state of consciousness that is the same in each and every person?

Try to define yourself.

Are we really all that different? I don't think so.

[SymphonyX]

Oh no, I need to be better at investigative reporting. I'll leave you too now. :(


*walks our of thread*
*sadly*

[Vulgotha]

That didn't make much sense, I won't lie. Please spare me this kind of talk, I'm entirely disinterested in it.

[Deldwen]

I'll do my own research into the matter, I'd lop off my own hand before I trust CNN as a completely legitimate source.

Edit: Yea the more I look into that figure the more bogus it's readily becoming. Sorry but I don't buy into CNN or the Lancet figures.


This one article in particular bloodies up Iraq body count.com and the Lancet figures.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1469636.ece

well deny the international body count if you will.

ether 100,000 or 2 million it doesn't matter!!

people are dieing and we must stop this... the war is pointless...

AND its an ILLEGAL WAR, you can not attack a nation prematurely with little to no reason, unless attacked..

and Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9-11...

[Vulgotha]

Ok..lol.

This discussion is over until I see something that look like it's convincing. ttyl.

[Deldwen]

So you deny that the only thing which can truly define your own experience of 'self' is the unchanging, constant state of consciousness that is the same in each and every person?

Try to define yourself.

Are we really all that different? I don't think so.

thank you!

another thing people don't understand, "600,000 is just a casualty number".. NO each and everyone was you in a different body (not literally)

each person feels, each person loves, each person has a story.

i don't see why anyone can say yes to a war... FOR THERE OWN PERSONAL INTERESTS!

[Deldwen]

Ok..lol.

This discussion is over until I see something that look like it's convincing. ttyl.

watch one of my video's

and tell me what you think of the inhuman treatment of the people in the crossfire.

[Vulgotha]

I've watched them. I gave you a term for it.

"Collateral damage". This is reality, better get used to it.

[Centurion]

well deny the international body count if you will.

ether 100,000 or 2 million it doesn't matter!!

people are dieing and we must stop this... the war is pointless...

AND its an ILLEGAL WAR, you can not attack a nation prematurely with little to no reason, unless attacked..

and Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9-11...

My browser crashed 4 times because of your youtube videos, ugh.

It doesn't matter if the war isn't legal or if it is, this is the US throwing its weight around in the international community.

Yes, its terrible that the biggest casuality of war are civilians, but thats the reality of it.

EDIT: Looks like Vulgutha and I were on the same wavelength there

[Taion]

That didn't make much sense, I won't lie. Please spare me this kind of talk, I'm entirely disinterested in it.


It's unfortunate that an intelligent person such as yourself is unable to understand the most basic of truths.

Words truly are useless.

[Vulgotha]

No, I have a religion and I have my own world view. I'm not impressed with what your spiritual experience\world view has to offer, nor it's supposed "Truths".

I respectfully decline.

[Deldwen]

My browser crashed 4 times because of your youtube videos, ugh.

It doesn't matter if the war isn't legal or if it is, this is the US throwing its weight around in the international community.

Yes, its terrible that the biggest casuality of war are civilians, but thats the reality of it.

EDIT: Looks like Vulgutha and I were on the same wavelength there

sorry lol... weak browser? get firefox

Peace and your right

[Deldwen]

It's unfortunate that an intelligent person such as yourself is unable to understand the most basic of truths.

Words truly are useless.

you actually sound a lot like me, except i am religious.

but i don't no what people have done with religion now... making stuff out from the bible text or whatever holy text--just to fit there life style...

Rev Wright is a good example and or any other person that thinks god wishes man to kill one another... like bush... he's Christian but he started a war?

[Centurion]

sorry lol... weak browser? get firefox

Peace and your right

I am using Firefox, its just that the flash plugin for Linux is garbage.


but i don't no what people have done with religion now... making stuff out from the bible text or whatever holy text--just to fit there life style...


People have ALWAYS done that, and always will.

[Deldwen]

I am using Firefox, its just that the flash plugin for Linux is garbage.



People have ALWAYS done that, and always will.

yes okay but how does "thou shall not kill" turn into lets start a war with a country that is(was) no threat.

*this has nothing to do with what i'm talking about but*

Waging war for peace is like raping for virginity...

[Centurion]

yes okay but how does "thou shall not kill" turn into lets start a war with a country that is(was) no threat.


I could ask you the very same question in regard to the enslavement of blacks, the slaughter of jews, and countless other horrors commited by supposedly religious people.

But I don't see where you're going with this idea, you're trying to put together two irrelevant ideas, as if US foreign policy cares what the bible says.

[One-Shot]

by the way! WE are CREATING the TERRORISTS!!

we kill there brothers and sisters... in turn making for a cycle of revenge!

there was no terrorist problems in Iraq till we came to blow the place up...

they are defending there country... even though they are idiots and shouldn't kill there own to create fear in the troops.

but US alone has killed 400,000 - 700,000 civilians there... more then any terrorist could ever dream...

we aren't helping, we're making more terrorists that YOU / WE are afraid of.

There are troops that come back and protest the wrongs in Iraq. They call all Iraqi's Haji so that its more animal then human.

I spoke to a troop on web cam and he was telling me how they kill children and wifes of terrorist because they would grow up to become terrorists and kill him.

Their are troops who say we are doing good and should continue helping the Iraqis so whats your point? Different people different opinions, that America for you.

So to answer my question why no speaking out against Saddam and his crimes?

So you are saying peaceful everyday people wanted to prevent a free government away from Saddam's rule so they turned to blowing up other Muslims, friends, and family, and kidnapping and brutally killing reporters? Hmm thanks it all makes sense now....
Sure some did turn to terrorism but for you to try to justify and support thier actions is very sickening.

and yes your body count is wrong btw.

[Sventax]

I'll do my own research into the matter, I'd lop off my own hand before I trust CNN as a completely legitimate source.

Edit: Yea the more I look into that figure the more bogus it's readily becoming. Sorry but I don't buy into CNN or the Lancet figures.


This one article in particular bloodies up Iraq body count.com and the Lancet figures.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1469636.ece

This is something I can totally agree with

I could ask you the very same question in regard to the enslavement of blacks, the slaughter of jews, and countless other horrors commited by supposedly religious people.

But I don't see where you're going with this idea, you're trying to put together two irrelevant ideas, as if US foreign policy cares what the bible says.

Why should we care about US foreign policy. It's not ours, so how relevant is this to me?
I don't care about US foreign politics.

All above started with the crown of England and the USA, talking about evil:twisted:

[Carsonal]

It's unfortunate that an intelligent person such as yourself is unable to understand the most basic of truths.

Words truly are useless.

Political and religious programming.
It gets hammered in from infancy.

[Centurion]

This is something I can totally agree with



Why should we care about US foreign policy. It's not ours, so how relevant is this to me?
I don't care about US foreign politics.

All above started with the crown of England and the USA, talking about evil:twisted:

If you don't care about US politics then why bother butting in when I'm replying to Deldwen on the topic in question?

[Sventax]

No, I have a religion and I have my own world view. I'm not impressed with what your spiritual experienceworld view has to offer, nor it's supposed "Truths".

I respectfully decline.

Pawned!

There is this energy that makes us one. An energy that makes us look the same direction. You can feel it when you love yourself

[Sventax]

If you don't care about US politics then why bother butting in when I'm replying to Deldwen on the topic in question?

I don't care about, BUT I am confronted with it unwillingly . This is something I can't accept.

I will give you a few examples.

The war between Israel and Lebanon/Palestina is costing us(holland) tax payers over E100 million a year.

We contribute hundreds of million every year to the UK

We are forced to wage war with countries even if we have no ties with them. Again TAX money

We are being forced to change policies here in Holland (air traffic stops)
because the USA has problems with an enemy they created. Again it costs us TAX

JFS costs us like 10 billion euro's because the US wanted this.
The EU has it's own state of the art fighter and is costs like 50% less.

There are more cases, but all in all all this funding goes to the war machine of the USA that will start a war and will ensure that a war will continue...... A war can be ended in a day to a few weeks.

How come the war between Israel and Lebanon still has not ended.
How come the war in Afghanistan and Iraq has not ended?
They have engaged a full scale war and yet they have not finished???

[Sventax]

If you don't care about US politics then why bother butting in when I'm replying to Deldwen on the topic in question?
If you don't care about US politics then why bother butting in when I'm replying to Deldwen on the topic in question?

I don't care about, BUT I am confronted with it unwillingly . This is something I can't accept.

I will give you a few examples.

The war between Israel and Lebanon/Palestina is costing us(holland) tax payers over E100 million a year.

We contribute hundreds of million every year to the UK

We are forced to wage war with countries even if we have no ties with them. Again TAX money

We are being forced to change policies here in Holland (air traffic stops)
because the USA has problems with an enemy they created. Again it costs us TAX

JFS costs us like 10 billion euro's because the US wanted this.
The EU has it's own state of the art fighter and is costs like 50% less.

There are more cases, but all in all all this funding goes to the war machine of the USA that will start a war and will ensure that a war will continue...... A war can be ended in a day to a few weeks.

How come the war between Israel and Lebanon still has not ended.
How come the war in Afghanistan and Iraq has not ended?
They have engaged a full scale war and yet they have not finished???

[Deldwen]

I could ask you the very same question in regard to the enslavement of blacks, the slaughter of jews, and countless other horrors commited by supposedly religious people.

But I don't see where you're going with this idea, you're trying to put together two irrelevant ideas, as if US foreign policy cares what the bible says.

our president is said to be very religious...

"one nation under god"

??

[Deldwen]

This is something I can totally agree with



Why should we care about US foreign policy. It's not ours, so how relevant is this to me?
I don't care about US foreign politics.

All above started with the crown of England and the USA, talking about evil:twisted:


me, me , me , me...

im truly sick and tired of everyone thinking about themselves all the time.

but then again.. thats why there is war...

peace and love =]

HAPPY CHRISTMAS

YouTube - Happy Christmas music video by John Lennon:

[Centurion]

our president is said to be very religious...

"one nation under god"

??

Your president is religious, so what? Religion doesn't play a role in government, you're not a theocracy like Iran.

[weskurtz81]

Deldwen,

So, you are calling me a baby killer.... that's nice. Do you think these people are targeted? Also, who do you think is mostly responsible? The US or the insurgents?

[Sventax]

me, me , me , me...

im truly sick and tired of everyone thinking about themselves all the time.

but then again.. thats why there is war...

peace and love =]

HAPPY CHRISTMAS

YouTube - Happy Christmas music video by John Lennon: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GKBE2tw970)

That's why the US should not impose her ideas unto others because that would be ME, me, me ...right or wrong?

Dude Christmas is a indeed in the summer but not the christmas most people are expecting

[One-Shot]

Deldwen,

So, you are calling me a baby killer.... that's nice. Do you think these people are targeted? Also, who do you think is mostly responsible? The US or the insurgents?
Well I can answer what he will say quite easily:

"It is all the U.S. fault we should of never gone in and they are just defending their homeland."

(more explained but never said) "I don't care how the Iraqis were treated under Saddam or that the majority of deaths are caused by terrorists attacks. They have a right to kill and kidnap as many Iraqis, troops, and reporters all because of the U.S. and them trying to replace a dictator with a free government. My political beef is all with the U.S. government so no matter what the facts I will blame them."

and scene.... boy wasn't that fun.

[Vulgotha]

To those of you who attempted to use the Biblical command "Thou shalt not kill" to justify your stances on War and your worldview- you're entirely wrong, and I doubt you're even remotely educated in Biblical Doctrine.

"Kill" in the English Bible, is derived from the Hebrew word "Murder". Technically it should be "Thou shalt not murder". There is a fine line between "Killing" and "Murdering".

If you read Numbers, or any of the OT for that matter (Which I doubt) you will find that he Hebrews made war plenty of times when threatened or etc. Sometimes God simply said "Wipe them out" (Canaan). There is a difference between pre-meditated murdering for personal gain or emotional satisfaction, and killing in war.




As to not irritate the mods, let's refrain from any further use of religious texts.

[Taion]

To those of you who attempted to use the Biblical command "Thou shalt not kill" to justify your stances on War and your worldview- you're entirely wrong, and I doubt you're even remotely educated in Biblical Doctrine.

"Kill" in the English Bible, is derived from the Hebrew word "Murder". Technically it should be "Thou shalt not murder". There is a fine line between "Killing" and "Murdering".

If you read Numbers, or any of the OT for that matter (Which I doubt) you will find that he Hebrews made war plenty of times when threatened or etc. Sometimes God simply said "Wipe them out" (Canaan). There is a difference between pre-meditated murdering for personal gain or emotional satisfaction, and killing in war.



As to not irritate the mods, let's refrain from any further use of religious texts.



Killing is still killing, regardless of motive or reason. Killing another (who is the same) results in separation and creates huge suffering for the loved ones of the dead on both sides. Of course, you already know this.

Killing another person is effectively killing yourself, - or atleast any chance for you to know yourself - furthering ignorance and suffering.


"pre-meditated murdering for personal gain or emotional satisfaction, and killing in war." Why are wars fought? Is it not for personal gain and emotional satisfaction?

[Vulgotha]

Your argument is logically inconsistent and quite frankly dripping with your own spin.

Did we go into WWII for personal gain? Did we go into Vietnam for personal gain? Did we go into Korea for personal gain? For purely selfish reasons?

There is a difference between making a tactical choice weighing the pros and cons of an engagement, and fabricating\starting a war simply so that you may reap lucrative benefits or pure emotional satisfaction.

[GhostFox61]

The mentality of Sun Tzu suggests that war is inevitable, necessary. This defeats the whole point of peace, it infact drags the concept of peace through the dirt, spits on it and then says 'sorry , its necessary' War is not necessary. War only causes more war. 'Peace' attained between wars is not peace, merely a prelude to more war.


I know this is hard to understand when you are a child, but there is only one viable solution to ensure world peace.

That is having an absolute dictator rule the world with an iron fist. Think Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. combined, but 1,000 times more effective.

All free thought, all free will would have to be crushed without mercy. The educated would have to be slaughtered, the strong culled, and the weak broken.

Only by enslaving humanity under the darkest shroud of misery possible could you exert the kind of force needed to "free" the world from war.

In a crowded room, the man pulling the trigger of the gun is the second most dangerous person in the room. The first is the one letting it happen in the name of peace.

[Taion]

I know this is hard to understand when you are a child, but there is only one viable solution to ensure world peace.

That is having an absolute dictator rule the world with an iron fist. Think Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. combined, but 1,000 times more effective.

All free thought, all free will would have to be crushed without mercy. The educated would have to be slaughtered, the strong culled, and the weak broken.

Only by enslaving humanity under the darkest shroud of misery possible could you exert the kind of force needed to "free" the world from war.

In a crowded room, the man pulling the trigger of the gun is the second most dangerous person in the room. The first is the one letting it happen in the name of peace.


This seemed completely ridiculous. Are you being sarcastic?

If not you basically just surrendered yourself to the concept that 'enslaving humanity' is necessary in order to bring peace to the world, effectively putting yourself in the position of 'most dangerous'.

And by the way, i'm not a child.

[Vulgotha]

Ghostfox is right. Even if it'd be impossible to conjure up that much power to oppress the planet, war would eventually come. Nor power is absolute no eternal on this earth.

[GhostFox61]

This seemed completely ridiculous. Are you being sarcastic?

If not you basically just surrendered yourself to the concept that 'enslaving humanity' is necessary in order to bring peace to the world, effectively putting yourself in the position of 'most dangerous'.


Gee, it's almost like I made a point with that.....



And by the way, i'm not a child.


It must be a matter of opinion.

[skarekrow]

Peace is a myth. Even if there isnt Political Warfare occurring, were at war with ourselves. We are trained as children to hate. The schools, our parents, our peers are all guilty.
Think about it for a moment, theres is at least one type of person (race, intellectuality, mentality) that you hate, there are religions that you hate, there are countries and states that you hate. We are all taught to hate and you cant have peace where hate is involved.

[Taion]

Peace is a myth. Even if there isnt Political Warfare occurring, were at war with ourselves. We are trained as children to hate. The schools, our parents, our peers are all guilty.
Think about it for a moment, theres is at least one type of person (race, intellectuality, mentality) that you hate, there are religions that you hate, there are countries and states that you hate. We are all taught to hate and you cant have peace where hate is involved.

thought -> separation -> desire-> hate -> suffering

By controlling our thoughts we can reconnect with the current moment, effectively cutting off hate before it can even manifest.

Yes, we are taught to hate, but we can learn to teach ourselves how to get out of that cycle by recognising that our thoughts are simply thoughts, they do not define us and do not reflect the true reality of now. Before we can hope for a lasting world peace we need to find the inner peace, the potential within everybody.

[Vulgotha]

You're really not fighting facts with facts Taion. Just opinions against thousands of years of set precedent on what Human nature truly is.

And what we do.

[skarekrow]

thought -> separation -> desire-> hate -> suffering

By controlling our thoughts we can reconnect with the current moment, effectively cutting off hate before it can even manifest.

Yes, we are taught to hate, but we can learn to teach ourselves how to get out of that cycle by recognising that our thoughts are simply thoughts, they do not define us and do not reflect the true reality of now. Before we can hope for a lasting world peace we need to find the inner peace, the potential within everybody.

Once we convince every individual on the face of the earth that this is how we should live, then well be set.

It goes without saying, it isnt going to happen. Humanity has become to self serving.
Granted, we can find peace within ourselves by viewing all others with closed eyes, open minds and hearts, but getting others to treat you with the same respect is a completely different story.

[One-Shot]

thought -> separation -> desire-> hate -> suffering

By controlling our thoughts we can reconnect with the current moment, effectively cutting off hate before it can even manifest.

Yes, we are taught to hate, but we can learn to teach ourselves how to get out of that cycle by recognising that our thoughts are simply thoughts, they do not define us and do not reflect the true reality of now. Before we can hope for a lasting world peace we need to find the inner peace, the potential within everybody.
When you put it like that then it brings up what GhostFox was talking about with no free thought being required for peace. You know the thing you jumped on him for.

[Deldwen]

Deldwen,

So, you are calling me a baby killer.... that's nice. Do you think these people are targeted? Also, who do you think is mostly responsible? The US or the insurgents?

most of the insurgents are fighting because we bomb there cites and kill their family's... the rest are extremists.

what would you do if someone bombed your streets and killed your family and friends for their own political forwarding?
would you just sit there and allow it?

*********

YouTube - ** The Reality of the Unreal **

^^^^^^^^^^^
The reality of the unreal.
Convey emotions no eye can see.
Hatred is blindness.
Love is sight.
The unreal of reality.

Thee imagination of the human mind will never be silenced, nor broken. Fore it is imagination that created the idea of silence and brokenness.

Love is an idea.

Hate is an idea.

But exterminating hate from being an idea would provoke that we in fact can change our world. By not letting anything or anyone change your imagination driven by love.

And so it is that your reality and others around you is now in that eternal ideal of love. And so it will be. Without the thought or action of hate.

Peace is an idea.
War is an idea.

So don't listen when people say your being unrealistic. Because reality is unreal and the unreal is reality.

To think is to know.
To be is to think.
To see is to love.
To exist is to feel the numbness of nonexistence.

Peace is an idea. Love is an idea.

Wisdom is knowing the untouched truth in your own imagination.

[Deldwen]

I know this is hard to understand when you are a child, but there is only one viable solution to ensure world peace.

That is having an absolute dictator rule the world with an iron fist. Think Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. combined, but 1,000 times more effective.

All free thought, all free will would have to be crushed without mercy. The educated would have to be slaughtered, the strong culled, and the weak broken.

Only by enslaving humanity under the darkest shroud of misery possible could you exert the kind of force needed to "free" the world from war.

In a crowded room, the man pulling the trigger of the gun is the second most dangerous person in the room. The first is the one letting it happen in the name of peace.

you really don't understand the idea of love and peace do you...

peace is not won through power... it is won through wisdom, the simplistic wisdom that in knowing the person next to you is you. And that they wish to be loved as you would.

Hate is only a feeling when love is no longer their.
If everyone loved everyone else as they love them selfs or more, there would be 99.999% less murder and all people would be well...

Here's a story for you.

There was once a story in Spain.
Of a man who went into another man's home and stole ALL of his things. Though the man he stole from was poor and had little, he still did it; then left. The next morning the man that owned the house woke up seeing all his possessions were gone. A knock came at the door. He went to open it. He saw that there were two policemen standing next too a man with a sack over his shoulder. It was the thief. The man that owned the small home knew this. he looked over his shoulder to see a silver candle holder the thief had not taken. He grabbed it and looked back at the robber. And said "Here, you forgot something" with a smile on his face. The thief immediately began to cry and broke down to the floor in tears. The man that owned the home told the police to leave and not arrest the man. The thief spilled out all the silvers and metals onto the floor from out of the tan sac, still crying deeply. Giving it back to the one he once stole. The thief left changed forever. And lead a life helping people and understanding the simple truth that ALL you need is Love.

Peace i hoped you liked the TRUE story.


Don't double post! ~ V

[One-Shot]

most of the insurgents are fighting because we bomb there cites and kill their family's... the rest are extremists.

what would you do if someone bombed your streets and killed your family and friends for their own political forwarding?
would you just sit there and allow it?


Well if someone was bombing my city unjustly I would fight back. Probably not by blowing up my neighbors their children and everyone else in the city also though.

You sure are a confused person on who is killing innocents here.

[weskurtz81]

most of the insurgents are fighting because we bomb there cites and kill their family's... the rest are extremists.


Care to find a source for that information? Do you have any idea what percentage of that country is actually causing the problems we are seeing now? Do you know where most of these insurgents are from?

[Deldwen]

Care to find a source for that information? Do you have any idea what percentage of that country is actually causing the problems we are seeing now? Do you know where most of these insurgents are from?



i don't exactly remember the source exactly but it was one of those offical journal ones... i copy and pasted it to a document of word for a school project. And believe me i can't right this well.

- By a Researching Journalist

"A point in Iraq itself.
Before our invasion, Iraq never had a suicide-terrorist attack in its history. Never.
Since our invasion, suicide terrorism has been escalating rapidly with 20 attacks in 2003, 48 in 2004, and many more in the first five months of 2005.
Every year that the United States has stationed 150,000 combat troops in Iraq, suicide terrorism has doubled. [This year the figure tripled or quadrupled]
Many people worry that once a large number of suicide terrorists have acted that it is impossible to wind it down. The history of the last 20 years, however, shows the opposite.
Once the occupying forces withdraw from the homeland territory of the terrorists, they often stop — and often on a dime.
I think it depends not exclusively, but heavily, on how long our combat forces remain in the Persian Gulf.
The central motive for anti-American terrorism, suicide terrorism, and catastrophic terrorism is response to foreign occupation, the presence of our troops.
The longer our forces stay on the ground in the Arabian Peninsula, the greater the risk of the next 9/11, whether that is a suicide attack, a nuclear attack, or a biological attack."

[Vulgotha]

The problem with the media is- it's entirely biased. Lol, no way around this fact. So take whatever they say with a grain of salt.

People who think they're "Fair" are insane and have completely forgotten about the Vietnam War and the Tet Offensive. IF you don't know what I'm talking about, then so be it.


Now, it is very much true that there are probably more "Terrorist activities" and attacks, IEDs, and the like. This is because they're initiating Guerrilla Warfare. The simple fact that resistance is present does not denote that we are the villains here.
Whenever any kind of war occurs there are usually elements of rebellion against the "Invaders" within the homeland. That's how war works, there will always be people upset at something or angry at something. Confusion, fear and hurt can easily be manipulated into hatred and fervor. Especially in the Middle East.

Weskurtz is still correct and your post did nothing to address any of his questions. You're also at a considerable disadvantage debating Weskurtz once you factor into account that he's a soldier, and has been deployed in Iraq. You're fighting an uphill battle that you cannot win. Nor should you.

Eternal Peace is a notion rooted in foolishness and naivety. War is as much a part of humanity as breathing.

Utopia is an impossible dream.

[DINAMO788]

deldwen, you really do kinda disgust me. if not for you J.R.R. tolkien sig we'd probably have nothing in common.

i have no clue what researcher said that but i find those claims hard to swallow. you do know that now and even the past year, maybe 2, attacks have decreased and we've been somewhat stabilizing in the region. the argument that they only attack us because we are occupying then is just not true. please give me some soures. as well as sources on the fact that there has NEVER been a suicide attack in iraq before we started the war there.

and please know that most of the deaths resulting in iraq aren't from american action, they are from the insurgents own reckless aggression. they dont really care if they have to kill 5 of their own citizens to get to one american soldier, they'll do it without thinking twice.


but please spare us your love preaching and everything. for every story like the man in spain there are countless others of the opposite nature. i admire your positive outlook on things but without a accurate perspective to put it all in, its only damaging and misleading.

[Husky]

What your missing is Iraqs government funded many terrorists like/including Al-Qaeda [the attackers in that plane]

[DINAMO788]

i think the bigger problem are outside agencies funding them...like Iran...

[sonyfan6]

What your missing is Iraqs government funded many terrorists like/including Al-Qaeda [the attackers in that plane]

This is incorrect. Iraq absolutely funded many terrorist groups, very publicly. However, Al-Qaeda was not one of them. Every shred of evidence says that Al-Qaeda approached Saddam and he turned them down and wouldn't let their organization in Iraq. He was still a terrible dictator and had very close ties to terrorism. We should not forget that. However, we shouldn't confuse his terrorist ties with Al-Qaeda.