Full & Limited RGB

[gruddy]

A little while after i got my ps3, i decided to mess around with the settings a bit more.
I came across the RGB setting. I thought to myself: 'full must be better than limited'. Right?

Without bothering to research or anything, i set my ps3 to full RGB. From then onwards i didnt change the setting.

However, a few days earlier i came across this thread that said limited RGB is best for tv's. i changed the setting and then played uncharted. WOW!
It felt like a totally new game! the amount of detail that was added was astonishing. i then changed the setting to full RGB and ran uncharted again. the amount of detail was much less and everything looked worse overall.

I dont have any comparison pictures but i must say that those who have it set to full RGB should change it straight away! the difference is astounding!

it may just be my tv, but im very happy with the change. i cant believe i got this far playing games the way they shouldnt have been played! i literally sat for ages just staring at the wall textures.

[saint seya]

maybe is only your tv....

[gruddy]

maybe is only your tv....

thats true.
it might be just the settings on my TV.
full RGB gives you more vivid colours but limited gives you more detail (for me).
i can easily change the brightness/contrast of the colours on limited, so thats my prefered option.

[Phantasmn]

Eh? Are you using an HDTV? If you are, it should help to have the full RGB on, but if you're using a regular old SDTV, then leave it at limited RGB.

[iBlake]

I changed mine from Limited to Full and it made a difference, also try turning on Super White.

[aayman_farzand]

FULL is recommended for monitors. my TV can be linked directly to a PC so i use FULL all the time. at FULL, my XMB looks a LOT better, at LIMITED the XMB kind of has a grey effect on top. i'm not sure if i should keep it at FULL though, can someone help me out? my TV's model is in my sig, supports 1080p. i did 2 FULL tests, one from the home theatre section and the other from another site. one worked the other didnt, so i'm confused.

[MajorZero]

Read through this thread on Limited and Full RGB http://ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=75181

@aayman_farzand

Send a message to REFLEX (http://ps3forums.com/member.php?u=15690) for some help.

[gruddy]

i have a HDTV and super white (or whatever it is) set to on.

Here is what refelx said on one of his threads:
On one hand you are getting more saturated color, but on the other you are missing out on so much detail, think of it.. the pores on the skin, the hair, the clothes, cars, ANY OBJECT AT ALL that isn't in 100% direct sunlight or light in a movie or game..... is LOSING DETAIL.

[TGO]

It don't take away detail
While I respect him for his expertise, REFLEX started that nonsense & it makes me laugh( I know what he is saying but it's bad wording), the detail is there in a higher RGB spectrum, but if your TV ain't compatible it'll be too dark in lowly lit areas because your TV can't display that many black levels, while mid to highly lit areas will appear more detailed( or stand out more would be the better word ) and looks beven better on a compatible TV.

[leukoplast]

Full should only be used on PC monitors. And you can get full and limited to look almost exactly alike on a HDTV. When in full simply adjust brightness, contrast, or the backlight accordingly (I cant remember which ones exactly.) Cause if you just select full, you will notice the TV get a lot darker looking. And when I did my adjustment's it got really close. (possibly identical if I didn't know better...which I may not)

But even if you manage to get them to appear similar, I still believe limited will be better for the average HDTV, non-monitor.

[Jordyrocks512]

I might try that out o.o For a good video setting to better, would be awesome xD

[majin]

only use full if your tv supports it, most 1080p higher end tv's do, the rest dont and as mentioned most monitors do.

i find if i use full on my tv which doesn't support it that areas of the picture lose detail and get a whole lot darker obscuring stuff on screen.

best way i know how to see if your tv supports full or limited is if you have warhawk, go to the icon on the xmb and when it brings up the picture of the warhawk being directed into the hangar by the guy, on the bottom right hand corner there is a grille on the floor, if its obscured in black while you have full on then your tv doesn't support it, try with limited first then full to see the difference.

[coolguy]

i think i have mine set to full.. and its a lot better then limted..
like the other guy said with it set to full the mxb is a lot brigther,,
and who wants to mess with tv setting like brigthness and contrast every time you
want to play a game

[vf-]

This is quite interesting info.

Until recently I have been using 'Full' mode for RGB Full Range on my PS3, that was until I discovered my TV didn't support it, so what I thought was a properly calibrated TV, actually wasn't, I was loosing a lot of detail in dark areas of movies and games.

So how can you tell if your TV Supports RGB Full Range? - Many HDTV's do not!

What your about to read is blatantly stolen from andrewfee on the NeoGAF forums.


"So how do you find out what your display supports? Well if you're hooked up to a monitor, it's 99% certain that it will be expecting a Full RGB signal.

So how do you know if your TV supports it? TVs generally have a hard cut-off on the 16-235 range, turning anything outside that to pure black / pure white. (eg 15 would be jet black, no matter how high you set brightness)

Make sure your PS3 is set to limited and download this image onto a memory stick, load it up in the PS3 browser etc:

http://sr-388.net/images/patterns/Brightness.jpg

Turn up the brightness control on your display until you can (hopefully) see all four numbers. (1% grey, 2% etc) Assuming you can see all four, adjust brightness to the point where 1 is just about to turn solid black. (if the lowest number you can see is 2, then adjust it until that is almost black)

Now, enable Full RGB. If your screen supports it, you should still be able to read the same numbers. If not, it will turn pure black. However, many TVs that support both won't auto-switch between the two, so you may need to check your TV's menus for a "black level" setting. (may be called something different) If you have that, change it and you should see the numbers pop back up onscreen.


If you can't see the numbers at all when you enable Full RGB and don't have any options that bring them back, you should be using limited. If you can still see them all, you're probably fine using Full RGB.

If you do use Full RGB, check your contrast setting is ok. If it is set too high, you may not be able to see the 99, 98, 97, 96% grey in this image:

http://sr-388.net/images/patterns/Contrast.jpg

Note: Just because you may be able to max out contrast and still see all the numbers does not mean that is the correct setting. This can only tell you if it's clipping highlight detail, not if it's too bright."

Once you have discovered if your TV Supports Full Range or not, it would make good sense to calibrate it correctly. Below is a link to AVSForum which provides test paterns that you can burn to DVD, and instructions on how to use them.

Blu-ray & HD DVD Calibration Disks (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496)

Might seem like a lot of effort, but by doing the above you know your getting the most from your equipment, now GTA4 isn't too dark at the default settings.

In FULL mode the source - which is 16-235 - is remapped to 0-255 - so blacks which are encoded on the BluRay source at level 16, are not output at 16 and instead reduced to 0. Whites which are encoded on the BluRay source at level 235 are scaled to hit 255. Anything below 16 or above 235 (so called Blacker than Black and Whiter than White information) is clipped in FULL mode - it is NOT passed.

The key thing to understand is that broadcast TV, DVDs, HD-DVDs and BluRay are mastered with black at 16 and White at 235 (whether RGB or YCrCb representation are used - and Cr Cb are 16-240 centred around 127) These are known as studio or broadcast levels - and have a narrower black-to-white range to allow for below-black and above-white excursions to be carried without clipping - which is an important issue when you are mixing analogue and video sources (Transitions can cause spikes in analogue circuitry that will go past black and white levels, if these are clipped, they will cause ringing - i.e. artificial black/white edge distortion - when converted back to analogue.)

The fact that FULL and LIMITED are not simply different ways of displaying a signal with the same range - as you suggest - is clearly visible when you flip between modes - as in FULL mode the black level drops and white level increases. This is NOT what would happen if the switch was simply between passing <16 and >235 or not and keeping black at 16 and white at 235 - you would get no black or white level shift. But you do.

Super White is the option that allows whiter-than-white to be passed - not FULL.

FULL is simply an option Sony added to remap 16-235 studio levels to the older DVI RGB standard (previously uncatered for in PS3) using PC levels of 0-255. It is NOT to do with passing blacker than black or whiter than white - as it clips <16 and >235 levels in the remap process. This is important for projectors and owners of older HDTVs with DVI inputs added for use with PCs rather than video sources.

So what does that mean?

Full mode remaps 16-235 to 0-255 but it cuts off anything between 0-15 and 236-255. that means if you are watching a bluray then full would actually discard that information - not ideal, same for ps3 games. this would make sense since when switching to full from limited on my ps3, i have to increase the brightness by exactly 16 points to see the same black levels in the tests (on my sony 40w2000)

this is one area where it gets VERY confusing best thing if you have a ps3 is to set the display output to automatic so it can switch between the two which in theory should choose full RGB for dvd playback and leave Hd material and games unmolested.

So, in other words, Full is only good for SD DVD's and bad for BR DVD's and games?

When you select RGB FULL you will immediately see increased contrast over RGB Limited or Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr. This is because the level of absolute black and white have been stretched (leaving no headroom for BTB and WTW). The increase in percieved contrast is actually due to blacks being crushed just like enabling black enhancement on most sets. You need to recalibrate and increase brightness when changing to RGB FULL before evaluating. You should find that there is no increase in PQ when using RGB FULL after recalibrating.

There is no reason to use RGB Full unless you are using a monitor (usually DVI) that does not support Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr or RGB Limited.



it seems that RGB full is actually there for when you're using a monitor that cant work a 16-235 colourspace, on a tv that can you shouldnt need to use it. which is the opposite of general understanding.

edit: apparently blurays and dvd's are both encoded with the 16-235 colour space so FULL shouldnt need to be used at all on a tv.



it seems to be that the correct answer is after calibration, both limited and full should look identical for movies. i am not sure about games yet

I think unless your 100% sure your TV supports it, and from my understanding a very small percentage actually do, Your better off leaving this set to Limited in the Display options of the PS3 or you will be crushing your blacks and loosing lots of detail in dark areas.

Edit: James.Miller - I believe on your TV if you set the colour range to Wide - you are effectively allowing your TV to pass 0-255 range, so RGB Full would look correct? I don't have your TV so not sure?

wide. hmm, i could check this.


anyway there's a great big long thread on it over at avsforum. in the end, they realised that limited on a limited tv will look exactly the same as full on a full display. ie waste of time really. BR and dvd's arent encoded with BTB or WTW, games arent either. so you either do or you do, its up to you. Full support is there too add support for lcd monitors which expect 0-255. if you arent using one, dont bother with it.


the important thing is to calibrate to whatever you choose. for me, since i run everything through the amp to the tv, i calibrated for limited so my levels would be the same for everything else plugged in to the amp (wii, V+ ect) and it looks GREAT.

[seebs]

Eh? Are you using an HDTV? If you are, it should help to have the full RGB on, but if you're using a regular old SDTV, then leave it at limited RGB.

This is incorrect. HD/SD is # of pixels, not color capacity.

The vast majority of TVs will not display as well with "full RGB" on. Turn it off unless your TV's manual specifically refers to the feature by name and tells you to turn it on.

[unsmart thing]

It varies for me. For playing games full looks much better. Otherwise it looks washed out. The dashboard looks terrible while using limited. If I use full while viewing BDs all the blacks are crushed and i lose detail so i have to use limited.

It could just be my tv though. I've got a 56" 1080p DLP.

[AlienGorilla]

Full should only be used on PC monitors. And you can get full and limited to look almost exactly alike on a HDTV. When in full simply adjust brightness, contrast, or the backlight accordingly (I cant remember which ones exactly.) Cause if you just select full, you will notice the TV get a lot darker looking. And when I did my adjustment's it got really close. (possibly identical if I didn't know better...which I may not)

But even if you manage to get them to appear similar, I still believe limited will be better for the average HDTV, non-monitor.

*Sigh* It is. There is no argument about it. This discussion always bothers me when i see it come up every so often. There is almost no reason for anyone to have RGB Full on unless they are using a monitor or an HDTV that supports it (Which most don't despite what many people think.) RGB FUll expands the spectrum to levels most HDTV's can't reach. Therefore any detail in that part of spectrum is crushed, whether it's white or black. If you just set the RGB to Limited and fiddle with the Contrast, Brightness, and Color you can get an image that looks similar to RGB Full while still being able to see all the areas on screen. It aggrivates me so much when people try to argue why RGB Full is better because they don't know what the hell they're talking about. Then other people that don't know sh*t ask for their opinion and get all these dumb*ss answers. Turn RGB Limited on, adjust the TV Settings, and enjoy all the detail that you are meant to see. All the other idiots can play with RGB Full on and pretend like they know what they're talking about.

[mcav]

I changed mine from Limited to Full and it made a difference, also try turning on Super White.


Most screens do not support either of these features.

Yes, I mean most Plasma/LCD screens.

[seebs]

It's not that this won't make a difference on most displays; it's that the difference will be a loss.

[Beast of Bourbon]

my tv loses alot of detail in dark spots with full rgb on... so i just set it to limited and adjusted the image till i thought it was good (contrast, backlight etc...)

i think its best that way.... some people say they get a better picture with full rgb though, maybe people should just try it out (...well you have and concur that limited rgb is better for you, kudos)

[Anbu_Evolution]

my tv loses alot of detail in dark spots with full rgb on... so i just set it to limited and adjusted the image till i thought it was good (contrast, backlight etc...)
That's exactly what happens on my Sony HDTV as well. Sometimes it's so dark, I literally can't see crap and playing GTA4 is a perfect example. Right outside your first safehouse when it's nighttime, I can't see jack. I turned on the RGB option a long time ago and I never thought that this was causing the issue until another member in my local forum warned me about it. I'm leaving the option turned off for now but the level of details is still awesome on my HDTV.

[Ubersnuber]

Wait, let me check if I got this right..
If my tv supports it, it doesn't matter since no Blu-ray game or movie won't support it anyways?

[gruddy]

the short answer is to use limited RGB on your TV and full on your computer monitor.

its as simple as that :)

[Nekromantik]

My LCD is a bit werid. If I have Full on then I can have my TV on dynamic contrast and blacks are black but when i put RGB to limited then the blacks are not as black and everything is brighter unless I change to manual brightness/contrast and turn it down.

[hired goon]

My LCD is a bit werid. If I have Full on then I can have my TV on dynamic contrast and blacks are black but when i put RGB to limited then the blacks are not as black and everything is brighter unless I change to manual brightness/contrast and turn it down.

yeah i have the EXACT same problem, blacks just dont look black without full rgb on, when its off black on the xmb looks like a grey sheet of paper... i have a prima 37"LCD what do you have??

[Sufi]

the short answer is to use limited RGB on your TV and full on your computer monitor.

its as simple as that :)

Yup, that is correct.

I've had a Samsung 22inch widescreen and I tested it out and FULL works much better on it.

Then I tried FULL on my HDTV and while it was similar, I noticed that I lost a lot of detail.

For some reason, it works great for monitors. Use Limited on HDTVs.

[fbodyamerica]

so i got a 62 inch toshiba hdtv 1080i i did have a hdmi cable that burnedx up on me so i got the rgb i think i have it set on full and if i not mistaken i think the color is dark ill have to put in on limited to check plus i can kinda tell that the bigger the tv the harder it is to recaliber the graphics and pixels so it does'nt look as good but maybe this is why maybe i need to change the settings

[Nekromantik]

yeah i have the EXACT same problem, blacks just dont look black without full rgb on, when its off black on the xmb looks like a grey sheet of paper... i have a prima 37"LCD what do you have??

I got a 22" LG 22LS4R
Its a monitor with built in TV tuner so that why I think Full works better.

[AmorBavian]

So far I have been going with FULL. My tv is Panasonic PZ85´. It supports xvYCC color range, so the FULL mode should be the best (and it is in my eyes).

With FULL chosen everything is better except GTA4. It is too dark. But I can compensate with manually tuning brightness and contrast. If I play it when LIMITED is on, I can just leave it on default settings. Why is this only happening in GTA4 and not in my other games?
And is the only solution to turn it to limited when I play GTA? Or off course, the manual changes that I made in game?

Appreciate the help..

[hired goon]

I got a 22" LG 22LS4R
Its a monitor with built in TV tuner so that why I think Full works better.

ah i see, i just tryed the the calibration pics and i find that if i play with my tv settings after i set limited to full i can still see the 1 and 99% but only after manualy switching my tv's settings... wth shoud i do?!?? when its on limited i can pull my tv's britness down but black still looks 5x better with full on... ahhh driving mah nuts

[StoneyPS3]

I turned off full RGB and it looked horrible, the black was grey and the picture looked washed out.

[Sufi]

I turned off full RGB and it looked horrible, the black was grey and the picture looked washed out.

Are you on a monitor or an HDTV? If HDTV then it's better to go with the limited and then adjust your brightness accordingly so it doesn't look washed out. Because you are losing a LOT of details and it's better to adjust so that it doesn't look washed out or white...make sure it's dark enough to not look washed out but not too dark so that you lose detail.

If you're on a monitor then more than likely it's better to go with FULL.

[Tj-Max]

Limited on my 24" Westinghouse makes the colors look washed out a bit. I always keep it on Full.

[StoneyPS3]

It's on a 42 Samsung plasma and I had a experiment but still don't see any more detail etc and what the settings is perfect for TV & PS3 for picture.

I'll have another ganda but at the moment Full is winning on my TV.

[Sufi]

It's on a 42 Samsung plasma and I had a experiment but still don't see any more detail etc and what the settings is perfect for TV & PS3 for picture.

I'll have another ganda but at the moment Full is winning on my TV.

My suggestion would be to try and raise your contrast and lower your brightness and see if you can achieve something better in limited? If it doesn't look better then keep the full.

[HiX]

I have a 42 inch Philips 1080p hdtv. Using FULL RGB really causes some loss in detail. Currently using Limited with adjusted brightness and contrast. Now it looks rich.

[Sufi]

I have a 42 inch Philips 1080p hdtv. Using FULL RGB really causes some loss in detail. Currently using Limited with adjusted brightness and contrast. Now it looks rich.

Yea same for me. Trust me I was all about FULL when I was playing my PS3 on the monitor but on my HDTV, it's a totally different story.

I think people should try to find the best settings with limited instead of relying too much on full.

[AltimusGTR]

I tested it just now with limited on two games: COD 4 and NBA 2K8.

In NBA2K8 the detail was better in the player's faces during in game. Even with my brightness bumped up and all the adjustments, some players just looked too dark with FUll and all you would see is a dark head and no face structure. With limited it is normal now.

In COD I noticed that areas that were dark before are now visible. Not washed out just visible. Like in the barn for example, when I went in it would be too dark in the corners so I have to turn on night vision. Turning on the brightness would make it to washed so. With it limited I can see fine in there without being washed out.

Only thing is the XMB isn't as vibrant I guess. The lettering doesn't pop out as much as it used to I guess.

I'll try GTA and The Show later on but it looks like Limited is the way to go for me.

42 Toshiba 1080p HDTV BTW.

[Scape]

i have no idea how to tell if my TV supports the RGB full, even after reading the manual so i just turned it to limited since everyone is saying most TVs do not support it.

so now how do i know if i should have the Super-White on or off?

heck...i dont even know what any of these settings are lol. just now realized my TV does 1080i so i just put it on that. i have no idea what cross color reduction filter, RGB, or what Super-White is lol.

[coolguy]

ok i was messing around with the lcd tv and PS3 TO DAY..
so i turned on Limited RGB and the game looks good.. also.
so i will leave it on limited for a while

[seebs]

i have no idea how to tell if my TV supports the RGB full, even after reading the manual so i just turned it to limited since everyone is saying most TVs do not support it.

so now how do i know if i should have the Super-White on or off?

heck...i dont even know what any of these settings are lol. just now realized my TV does 1080i so i just put it on that. i have no idea what cross color reduction filter, RGB, or what Super-White is lol.

Pretty sure super-white is another "the manual will mention it if it's supported" feature.

[Scape]

guess mine is not supported then as it says nothing about super white lol.

i thought my screen looked better with RGB full, but by the looks of what people are saying, my 32" Westinghouse does not support it. ill put it back on unlimited and tweak with my TV settings when i get home and see if that works.

[PixelPushed]

I dont have a HD TV neither a PS3 yet

[AmorBavian]

I dont have a HD TV neither a PS3 yet

WOW! Thanks for that very usefull info!