PS3 DTS:MA Playback Flawed for some 7.1 Discs!

[REFLEX]

Ok, an update.... I'll rewrite this.

There is a major issue with the PS3's new DTS:MA decoding for some 7.1 DTS:MA tracks!!

Here is some background information... A similar issue happened with bitstreaming Blu-ray players (my BD30 was one of them) sending New Line Cinema 7.1 DTS:MA tracks to the receiver. The Player sent it out fine, the receiver got the signal and sent out 7.1 channels of sound to the speakers, so you still got 7.1. The issue was that the receiver was showing you 5.1, which wasn't a huge issue, more of an annoyance. The problem was fixed by the specific receiver companies, as it was a receiver issue with early versions of DTS:MA.





NOW FAST FORWARD TO TONIGHT AND THE PS3:

The issue is somewhat similar, except that the receiver is actually only getting 5.1, and it isn't sending the 7.1 to the speakers!

I have yet to confirm this yet myself as I'm about to go to bed, but it sounds as if it is totally true. If someone wants to test it from this site then please do (make sure you have a capable set up).


This is a big issue if true, hopefully Sony will fix this ASAP!!

[saprano]

hey reflex on avs they say that speakers dont even play in all 7,1 channels Hey everyone,

Updated my PS3 around 11 PM and have been watching various Blu-Ray discs and making observations.

Discs I have watched since the update with DTS-HD MA:

Speed 5.1
DTS 2008 Blu-Ray Demo Disc 5.1/7.1
Oldboy 7.1
Pan's Labrynth 7.1
Shoot 'Em Up 7.1


What I have observed thus far:

Before I put any movies in, I decided to scroll over on the XMB to 'System Settings' and all the way to the bottom, I selected "System Information". This brings up a running "credits" of the PS3 with liscensing information about various software the system uses. You will find copyright information and logos for various codecs, like TrueHD, Java, and the like. I did see something interesting...before the update, there was a generic DTS logo like what is found on the side of the PS3 shell. Now, there is a new logo that reads "DTS-HD Master Audio | Limited". What this "Limited" business is all about I really have no idea, but I did find that interesting given what I have read so far on this board since the update and what I observed on my own.

All the DTS 7.1 MA tracks played perfectly on the DTS demo disc. I saw 7.1 on the PS3, 7.1 on my Pioneer Elite receiver, and I could hear sound loud and clear out of all 8 speakers. Oldboy also worked fine for 7.1 output as well. Pan's Labrynth and Shoot 'Em Up, on the other hand....was interesting.

Both of those discs seem to work correctly at first. When I started playing them the New Line High Definition intro plays in full 7.1 glory. However, once the actual movie starts, I see 7.1 on the PS3 info tab, but I only get 5.1 active channels on my AVR and the back surrounds are completely silent to my ears. The crazy thing is that the DTS Demo disc I have has a clip in 7.1 from New Line: Rush Hour 3, that plays perfectly!!!! http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/eek.gif

So what does this mean? This is not a PS3 issue, nor is it an Onkyo issue or a Pioneer issue. This is a software issue limited to certain New Line titles with DTS-HD MA 7.1, including Pan's Labrynth and Shoot 'Em Up. Dissapointing for sure, as I'm sure both of these sound outstanding in 7.1. My gut feeling says that it will be worked out, either in a disc re-issue or an update by Sony. Rest assured, THE PS3 IS PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF FULL 7.1 DTS-HD MA PLAYBACK. I believe Pan's Labrynth and Shoot 'Em Up are two isolated cases that will be fixed in time.

All things considered, tonight is a great night, indeed. I was pleasantly suprised as to how rubust these MA tracks sound. Speed has a great MA track, especially considering its age. Enjoy this guys, and don't fret about those two movies. Let us know if you find any other issues with 7.1 titles so we can make New Line aware of the problem. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif
http://images.avsforum.com/avs-images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.avsforum.com/avs-images/buttons/report.gif It's not a New Line Issue...

This is a Sony issue... they haven't properly implimented the decoder...

I have spoken to DTS and New Line about why this happens on certain pieces of hardware.

DTS-HD/MA has 7 supported channel configs... the only two 7.1 configs being used right now are 7.1 with side surrounds at 90 degrees and back surrounds at 150 degrees, and 7.1 with rear surrounds at 120 degrees and back surrounds at 150 degrees...

The NL titles use the later for logos, and the former for features.

The decoder should simply pass the side or rear surrounds out the same outputs, regardless of where they are physically placed.. this is certainly a decoder issue, and should've been caught during QC.. it might've been, and should be easily correctable.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1017825&page=11 post 311

[REFLEX]

Oh wow.... ok. I'll have to test this tomorrow.

Unless someone else can test it in between now and then (from this site).


I suppose the problem with the bistreamed players and receivers was similar, but also quite different, because those WERE playing the DTS:MA 7.1 tracks, the receivers were just showing it as 5.1, even though it wasn't.


This is bad if true!

[Little_Donkey]

I think it's all BS.
For me the fault is all to DTS, DTS HD wasnt ready and rushed to the market, and that brings bugs.

*DTS HD Master Loud bang
*DTS HD MA Remapping problem on Denon(fixed by denon)
*DTS HD MA Remapping problem on Yamaha with 5.1 DTS HD Ma
*DTS HD MA Remapping problem with PS3

Well for me its not the fault of Sony or all the receiver brand(denon Yamaha, Onkyo,...), although they have the dirty work to do and thats to fix what DTS messed up.

All hardware and software are approved by DTS
DTS just messed up with some software in the beginning. That probably got fixed by now.

I got this email back from Yamaha, and thats about the speaker remapping problem with the Yamahas. It shows 7.1 active speakers with 5.1 input(only with DTS HD Ma)

We are sorry for late reply.

We received the answer from our design section.
Yamaha RX-V3800 and RX-V1800 are following DTS specification. It is not a bug.

DTS HD specification is including a function called: speaker remapping. Relate to this DTS specification the speaker information at the display shows 7 speakers.
It is not (!) related to the numbers of input channels.
Because of the input signal shows 5.1 but the display shows 7 speakers.

In case of inputting DTS-HD 5.1ch source, DTS-HD decoder activates to output 7.1ch speakers due to "Speaker remapping" function.
That's why FL speaker channel indicator shows "7.1ch(7.0ch)" as possible speaker output, while signal info at GUI shows "5.1ch"as just inputted signal.

From technical view point, this fact is correct result.

As matter of fact, it does not necessarily mean that every 5.1ch DTS-HD contents can be 7.1ch output. Some 5.1ch contents prohibit 7.1ch output. Further more, all DTS-HD contents discs in market prohibit 7.1ch output, meaning no SBL/SBR audio, despite indicating 7.1(7.0)
speaker indicator at FL display.

The FL display information has also no effect to the operation of Yamaha DSP.

Yours sincerely

[Lionel Hutz]

Interesting info guys thanks. I await REFLEX's findings. Oh, and I guess this confirms that DTS:HD MA is decoded by the PS3 and not bitstreamed.

[stringfellow hawk]

Well if this is a big issue for people and they are just looking for stand alone player so they dont need to worry about these issues. I just saw on amazon they have the BD30 for something like 425 its used but has a free hdmi cable. Just thought i would give people a heads up if they are interested. I have the same one and it is great, silent and you get to see your receiver light up with all those cool DTS HD Logos.

[REFLEX]

I use the BD30 as well for movies... great machine.


Anyway, I'm going to go test this in a little while here, just woke up.

Surprised more people haven't read this.. its a big deal.

[Silar]

A quick google search show people having problems with these NewLine discs on other systems long before the PS3 update.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=967535

So it sounds very much like these are non-compliant discs, rather than a PS3 problem..

[REFLEX]

No, its either a PS3 or a DTS problem.

The New Line discs are straight up DTS:MA 7.1, nothing else. So its directly related to DTS:MA.

[Silar]

No, its either a PS3 or a DTS problem.

The New Line discs are straight up DTS:MA 7.1, nothing else. So its directly related to DTS:MA.

How do you explain the very same discs having the exact same problem on non-PS3 systems several months back? (see link) Far too much of a concidence.

How can you be sure these discs are encoded correctly? Do you have some method of testing their DTS:MA 7.1 complaince?

[REFLEX]

Because, I use them on my BD30 and after the firmware update (WITH THE RECEIVER) it worked properly.

Its a totally different issue, before the problem was that the receiver was actually getting and outputting 7.1, but it was showing 5.1 on the display, not the biggest deal.

With the PS3 we are getting 5.1 only in our speakers. So its more than likely a problem with the PS3 than anything. Yes, there is an issue with the discs, obviously, but the 7.1 DTS:MA is there.... and it can be used properly. So obviously this is a Sony or DTS problem, because its fully usable.

[theshadow1234]

Definately a Sony PS3 Issue. There was a user in the other forums who tested the Pans Labrynth and it was bit-streaming to 7.1 through the same receiver.

I guess for now, exclude any New Line Cinema titles from playing on your PS3 if you want to hear DTS-HD Master.

[REFLEX]

Indeed.


I have personally tested a few of the discs out in question, and the problem is indeed with the PS3.

I can go bitstream the 7.1 tracks from Pan's Labyrinth, Hairspray or others and get full 7.1 into all speakers and receiver.

Same movie, same disc.. into the PS3, only get 5.1.


I'm glad I have my BD30, but wow... this sucks.

[Lionel Hutz]

I guess for now, exclude any New Line Cinema titles from playing on your PS3 if you want to hear DTS-HD Master.You act like DTS:HD MA is only useful for 7.1 surround systems. If you have 5.1 (for example), you will still benefit from DTS:HD MA. So your quote isn't appropriate for everyone as you implied.

[theshadow1234]

You act like DTS:HD MA is only useful for 7.1 surround systems. If you have 5.1 (for example), you will still benefit from DTS:HD MA. So your quote isn't appropriate for everyone as you implied.


Your right. I forgot about the 5.1. Im sure Sony will Step up soon to fix this problem anyway. No biggie. We still have other titles that work and we can enjoy.

Thanks

[rmac694203]

I'm curious, does anyone know what is missing? What I mean is, does it just leave out, say, the rear surround channels? Or the side surrounds? Possibly it combines the 4 into 2 channels? I guess until it's figured out, you could matrix the 5.1 to 7.1, but it still sucks.

[emacs]

I'm curious, does anyone know what is missing?

i suspect no signals are sent to the rear surrounds.

[rmac694203]

I suppose it would make sense that it would just completely leave out the rear channels. But, you never know. It could be some screwed up situation where your side surrounds get the rear channel sound and the rears get nothing. Who knows....obviously Sony doesn't.

[REFLEX]

I think it just leaves the rear channels out. I don't want to sit there with my BD30, the PS3 and Pan's Labyrinth and test it out for an hour.... ugh. But the issue remains.

Sony is going to have to step it up on this one.

[rmac694203]

Come on, REFLEX. You know you want to sit there and analyze your surround speakers for different sounds. :lol:

[REFLEX]

No!!! haha... I don't! It drives me crazy to do that kind of stuff. I remember when I was dialing in the bass levels...... should I go Max Output or Extended Range? What level, wheres the best cross over... uh...... next thing you know its a week later and I'm still not satisfied.

But yeah, it doesn't really matter, we are missing this 7.1 track. Although, I'm not.... because of my BD30, but I'd love for the PS3 to actually have this done properly.

[rmac694203]

What did you go with? Max output or extension? I *think* my sub (stf-2) is essentially the same as the vtf-1 in max extension mode. I didn't dial mine in very well yet. I actually bottomed the woofer out watching Flight of the Phoenix today. Luckily no damage...I hope. Had to turn the volume down a few notches. But, I digress.

Hopefully by the time I get into my new house and actually get to hook ALL my new speakers up for 7.1, Sony will have this taken care of.

[REFLEX]

Yeah max extension I believe is the one with deeper bass more suitable for movies and gaming. While output is LOUDER bass (maybe I have them mixed up), which is better for playing music.

I believe that when I move into a much larger place and BUY my house that I'm definitely going to get a 2nd subwoofer to leave on the other mode..... best of both worlds!!

;)


They should take care of it soon! I can't imagine it being that difficult to remedy.

[rmac694203]

Yeah, max extension has lower frequency response (25 hz vs. 32 hz. w/ max output on vtf-1). I'd like to get something like a vtf-3 HO w/ a MBM or something some day. I can keep dreaming though. My ol lady gives me a 'look' if I even bring up subwoofers anymore.

[AMG44]

Yeah max extension I believe is the one with deeper bass more suitable for movies and gaming. While output is LOUDER bass (maybe I have them mixed up), which is better for playing music.

I believe that when I move into a much larger place and BUY my house that I'm definitely going to get a 2nd subwoofer to leave on the other mode..... best of both worlds!!

;)


They should take care of it soon! I can't imagine it being that difficult to remedy.

Does your sub have crossover points on the amp?

[rmac694203]

Yes, his does. He has a VTF-2 Mk 3 I believe, which has a Bypassable 24 dB/Oct, continuously variable 30 - 90 Hz low pass filter.

It has the ability, through plugging or opening of ports, to operate in two modes. Max extension (lower bass) and max output (louder bass).

I got a lower model that only operates in max extension mode.

[z38gm]

I believe that when I move into a much larger place and BUY my house that I'm definitely going to get a 2nd subwoofer to leave on the other mode..... best of both worlds!!

This would not be a good choice. If you have 2 subwoofers, which is a good idea, it is ideal to use the same unit, with the same tuning frequency. If one does not do this than whichever subwoofer is lacking more in a specific circumstance is likely to introduce excess distortion to the signal.

Yeah, max extension has lower frequency response (25 hz vs. 32 hz. w/ max output on vtf-1). I'd like to get something like a vtf-3 HO w/ a MBM or something some day. I can keep dreaming though. My ol lady gives me a 'look' if I even bring up subwoofers anymore.

The MBM is absolutely useless if one is using a quality subwoofer such as the VTF-3. Snake-oil is snake-oil no matter the company who sells it. If you look at the credible third party measurements of the HSU subwoofers it would be noted that they are more than sufficient in producing mid-bass.

[AMG44]

Yes, his does. He has a VTF-2 Mk 3 I believe, which has a Bypassable 24 dB/Oct, continuously variable 30 - 90 Hz low pass filter.

It has the ability, through plugging or opening of ports, to operate in two modes. Max extension (lower bass) and max output (louder bass).

I got a lower model that only operates in max extension mode.

oh ok. not too familiar w/that brand so i was wondering the modes you wee talking about

[rmac694203]

Yeah, check out hsuresearch.com for the models. They are regarded pretty highly for their price.